Strange issue when pulling off

[focusgeoff]

Hey, I have a really strange issue which is kinda hard to explain.

When I pull away, in first and second gear and as I let off the clutch right at the very top, my car lurches forward. It like when you lift off the clutch a little too quick I would say. I can minimize the effect a bit by slipping the clutch a little longer, or dropping it a tiny bit back in before letting it out again, i'm convinced it's not my driving style causing this and It's not noticeable in higher gears. I was starting to think it was just a characteristic of the gearbox/engine, however there's been 2/3 times when I've started it up and driven it, and the issue has gone completely, only to return the next time I drive it, which is really odd.

I've tried turning off traction control and hill start assist also as a test, which makes no difference.

 

It's actually been back to ford for them to look at an issue where the clutch slips for about the first 5 minutes in first gear first thing in the morning, but after booking it in for the day, they called me 2 hours after dropping it off saying it felt fine, despite me saying it was only fist thing, and I'd already driven it there *sigh*

Anyway, I mentioned the issue to him at the time, only for him to respond with "Clutch felt fine to me". Clearly they hadn't done anything that got in and drove it down the road, but I'm wondering if anyone else has a similar issue, or any advice? The car only has 17,000 miles so I'd be surprised if it was a clutch issue

 

Thanks in advance

[michaelburrows]

you havnt given any details of which car. mines a 2.0 tdci 163 2013. i have a similar problem. as do quite a few other 2.0 owners. .tried everything except a remap. 

[focusgeoff]

I've seen your post actually, and the issue does sound similar, except mines a 1.0l ecoboost petrol. 

It's practically impossible to pull away without the lurching. I'd like to drive another with the same engine as a comparison 

 

Have you had ford check yours? I presume they say its usual behaviour 

[Botus]

emission control - (sorry Michael only thought of this recently) on watchdog the 2cyl fiat 500 was remapped to meet euro 5 and became undrivable.  Was little the manu could do to meet rules, but the owner can tweak it.

they had a number of new owners who had the old euro 4 version, contact them, I think in a hilly bit of Bristol owners were saying, basically they can't drive the car.  Then a woman from watchdog has the same problem with the TV crew there... they got the Stig involved after Fiat point blank refused to acknowledge any issue..... and he couldn't pull off on a hill or park it, without stalling or revving to 5 k and lighting up the tyres

I think euro 5 was the breaking point (and euro 6 is why there are no ford's to buy in the shops as they can't meet the rules and make it drive properly).  The manu software tweaks basically allow you to pick up the revs from idle but then build in a massive "low emission flat spot" which tends to come in as the clutch bites, it tries to stall, you react, it reacts to you trying again and it all goes wrong

 

 

 

[TomsFocus]

It's common diesel issue.  The EcoBoosts don't usually drive that badly though.  Has it been a problem since you've owned it or just recently started?  Also is it a 125 or 99ps model?

[TomsFocus]

1 minute ago, Botus said:

emission control - (sorry Michael only thought of this recently) on watchdog the 2cyl fiat 500 was remapped to meet euro 5 and became undrivable.  Was little th emanu could do to meet rules, but the owner can tweak it.

they had a number contact them and I think in a hilly bit of Bristol owners were saying basically can't drive the car.  Then a woman form watchdog has the same poblen with the TV crew... I think was Tiff Needell ended up being drafted in after Fiat point blank refused to acknowledge any issue..... and he couldn't pull off on a hill or park it, without stalling or revving to 5 k and lighting up the tyres

I think euro 5 was the breaking point (and euro 6 is why there are no ford's to buy in the shops as they can't meet the rules and make it drive properly).  The manu software tweaks basically allow you to pick up the revs from idle but then build in a massive "low emission flat spot" which tends to come in as the clutch bites, it tries to stall, you react, it reacts to you trying again and it all goes wrong

 

 

It was Ben Collins on the Watchdog programme...when the Stig can't manage a hill start they had to accept something was wrong...  

I've already said this this about the E5 diesels though, it's purely down to the mapping for lower emissions.  At least VW just used cheat software so it could keep the driveability, economy and power of their engines...   

[Botus]

yes, well remembered.  I edited my post and include the link

I'm all for the VW way, the tests were stupid as we allowed stupid people to write the rules.  VW just implemented a sensible way to make the owner and the idiots making standards happy.

they were/are all at it, Vauxhall and Merc were no better, they just offset ambient air temp sensor to frig when it runs the std map vs the undrivable one meeting standards.  BMW either paid people off, or by pure luck the car met the std when it was never engineered to do it.

VW's real issue is around USA trade protectionism - they go after anyone bigger and market bad news to kill of the competition.  The whole Toyota thing was NOTHING, 5 people had their floor mats under the pedals and one copper videoed himself committing suicide.... but there wasn't a single thing wrong with any Toyota   

[michaelburrows]

so euro 5 is the problem.haha. praps a remap will cure it and give me a bit more ooomph.

[focusgeoff]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:29 AM, TomsFocus said:

It's common diesel issue.  The EcoBoosts don't usually drive that badly though.  Has it been a problem since you've owned it or just recently started?  Also is it a 125 or 99ps model?

It's the 125 model. I've only had it a month or so. I noticed it on the test drive, but put it down to being a newer car than I was used to, and figured I would get used to it. 

Strangely it's been running absolutely fine the last 2 days. It's like a different car, and the clutch feels different, it feels less light. 

No idea what's going on with it, but Botus' post also seems familiar. I found it pulled away better when giving it about 3k revs, but it's a fine line between pulling away smoothly then, and spinning the wheels. 

[TomsFocus]

As it's a 125, has it had the clutch recall done?  You can check for outstanding recalls using ETIS.

[focusgeoff]

Hi Tom

Yeah I checked and there's no recall. I think it was made after this.

Weirdly, it's now been 3 days driving perfectly normal now. It seems to have fixed itself after around a month (fingers crossed).

The clutch feels different. I noticed when I got it that it had a squeak coming from the clutch spring, so sprayed some WD40 on it. Perhaps over time that's had some effect, who knows

[focusgeoff]

So my issue has returned and I've been doing some more testing. 

Everytime it starts with the slight lurching when pulling away, if I take it out of gear and pump the clutch a few times, it completely cures it again for while, and the pull off is perfect.

I'm guessing this points towards a clutch cylinder issue, but i've not had any other symptoms like hard to get into gear etc. Although it could be my imagination but the gear changes do feel slightly different when it's running well. 

Do you think a faulty clutch cylinder could cause this strange issue? 

 

Incidentally I've always had an issue where it will judder in first thing in the morning after being left all night. This resolves itself after a couple of miles, but the pumping of the clutch causes this again I've noticed (while fixing the lurching). Starting to think a possible clutch fluid leak.. 

[Botus]

this is very strange....

at the moment the only thing that I can see might be happening... by dipping the clutch (in the past mk1 focus 1.6 petrol had this) they had this silly idea to hold the revs up so it died back more slowly than you would expect (I guess so gear changes could be smoother) but mainly as some silly idea to improve emissions - could dipping the clutch bring in "the rev up slightly mode" and that helps get past a differing stupid emission idea they (badly) implemented with euro 5

other wild idea, if it comes and goes day to day, is the weather creating a grip issue and thus traction control event is kicking in and the clutch kills this resetting things for a for a split second

[focusgeoff]

Yeah it's really odd. I'm 100% certain now that pumping the clutch resolves the lurching issue. Been reading up about air in the line, or low fluid and the symptoms are similar. 

It's booked with ford again for Jan, but i'm gonna check the fluid level tomorrow out of interest. 

 

The gearbox also feels totally different (firmer) after 

[djkoss86]

Did the pumping of the clutch slave cylinder resolved the issue ? Mine does exactly the same an it's 2015 (EURO 6 model) -diesel .

[focusgeoff]

yeah it does, but only for a short period. I've read some of the other thread that Michael started, the difference with mine is it's a petrol, and no issues with the temp gauge. My issue is actually a couple of things.

1. First thing in the morning slight slippage when pulling off in first (this clears after a few mins, and I'm yet to work out if its due to cold/damp, or rather sitting idle and possibly something leaking)

2. Mainly in gears 1/2 as I lift off the clutch at the very top I get a slight lurch forward. It's nothing major, but bad enough to annoy me that I cannot pull away smoothly. (biting point also seems high, but read this is normal for a ford) 

 

When I pump the clutch, it seems to resolve issue 2 for a while, but also briefly causes the slippage feeling again like issue 1. It's very odd. It also makes the gear changes feel a lot better. Doing some research online the last couple of nights, made me think about air in the line, or low fluid in the reservoir. I checked the level this morning and it's not far off the min level, which i'm not sure if it's odd considering it's only on around 16k miles and had a full ford service in March. I shouldn't think it should be that low, but I've not noticed any leaks anywhere.

I'm thinking about topping it up as a test. It's due to be looked at by Ford in Jan anway

[focusgeoff]

Update on this

 

Issue no 2 strangely appears to have resolved itself. No more lurching, which is odd. I've had multiple other issues though, all intermittent, Hard to engage gears at times, still got the occasional slipping in the mornings, and when warm I sometimes get a load squeeling/grinding sound when pulling off, almost like the brakes are binding.

All of this on a car with only 16k miles

 

The first time I took it to Ford, I got a call within 2 hours saying they couldn't fault it. 

Took it in again yesterday so they could drive it first thing this morning cold. Just got a call saying they couldn't fault it again. So basically they drive it for 5 minutes, and if they can't feel the issue they won't even investigate anything. I gave them a list of symptoms, all of which point to the clutch in my opinion, yet they refuse to check it as it's intermittent.

I reckon they think I must enjoy the inconvenience of keep taking my car down there just for a laugh. Even when I was booking it in yesterday the lady on the service desk was telling me they wont even look at it if they can't detect the issue at the time of driving. so I hope nobody else ever gets any intermittent faults on their car

 

[TomsFocus]

Is the brakes noise occurring when pulling away on an incline?  That'll just be the hill start assist if so. 

 

[Botus]

if it does it when the ambient temp is 15 to 25 but not when its below 5C it might be a cold weather map is circumnavigating the stupidly lean map it usually uses

on petrol engine'd bikes its becoming more and more common to tweak the AIT (air intake temp sensor), it can have a resistor put inline so it more often uses the cold weather map and the bike is far more user friendly with a far less snatchy throttle

 

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/416881-Booster-plug-review

[focusgeoff]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:56 AM, TomsFocus said:

Is the brakes noise occurring when pulling away on an incline?  That'll just be the hill start assist if so. 

 

No I turned this off when it started doing it as a test. The lurching issue returned again today, along with ticking gears. Pumped the clutch a few times and it resolved it all again. I'm convinced there's air in the line or something, but Ford wont even look as they can't replicate it

[focusgeoff]

So this issue continues on and off. I'm starting to think it might not be clutch related (the lurching issue) and more to do with the revs somehow. Occasionally turning the engine off and on again resolve it. 

When the lurching goes away, I also seem to have a bit more power, and the car just feels different.

Ford of course say they cannot fault it