Mk 2.5 1.6tdci Oil leak

[Albert27]

For some time now I've had an oil leak on my Mk2.5 Focus (1.6TDCi) with 165k on the clock.  Not been that noticeable but more recently I've noticed the Dipstick dropped to just below half. 

I'm due to service it soon, but am hoping to have a good look to see if I can narrow down the leak and maybe fix it to reduce the chances of it being picked up on MOT.

Where on these engines are likely places for oil to leak?  

Thanks!

[isetta]

On my fiesta 1.6tdci it was leaking from where the sump joins the engine block when it was one year old. It had a loose sump bolt at the crankshaft pulley end of the sump, did it up tighter and was fine. Later on I had leak from drain plug but that was me ruining thread by overtightening after about 10 oil changes

[Albert27]

10 minutes ago, isetta said:

On my fiesta 1.6tdci it was leaking from where the sump joins the engine block when it was one year old. It had a loose sump bolt at the crankshaft pulley end of the sump, did it up tighter and was fine. Later on I had leak from drain plug but that was me ruining thread by overtightening after about 10 oil changes

That's really helpful, thanks isetta.  The sump was replaced about 18 months ago so it's quite possible the leak is coming from there.  It was replaced because I also ruined the sump plug thread on my first oil change, you only make that mistake once!! 

[Albert27]

Any other likely places for a leak?

[TomsFocus]

Is it definitely leaking and not just burning?  Half a dipstick is quite a lot but mine used to burn through that in a few months.  It's about a litre between min and max iirc.

The sumps always leak on these but it's more of a mist than a drip usually.  Worth checking the oil filter casing is tight enough and not cracked.  Other areas would be the turbo oil pipes and where the oil cooler/filter housing meets the block.  Given the mileage on yours it could even be the main seal so check between the engine and gearbox to see if that's damp.

Obviously the best thing to do would be clean up any leaking oil and then check again after a week to see where the fresh stuff is.

[Albert27]

13 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Is it definitely leaking and not just burning?  Half a dipstick is quite a lot but mine used to burn through that in a few months.  It's about a litre between min and max iirc.

The sumps always leak on these but it's more of a mist than a drip usually.  Worth checking the oil filter casing is tight enough and not cracked.  Other areas would be the turbo oil pipes and where the oil cooler/filter housing meets the block.  Given the mileage on yours it could even be the main seal so check between the engine and gearbox to see if that's damp.

Obviously the best thing to do would be clean up any leaking oil and then check again after a week to see where the fresh stuff is.

I'm pretty sure it is Tom, it's been mentioned as a leak on previous MOT and there is evidence of oil.  The cap previously had a cut out in it presumably from someone getting confuzzled when trying to refit the filter after a change; it won't go on without undoing the bracket but bizarrely comes out fine lol. Anyway I replaced that so pretty sure it's not leaking from there.  I'll have a good look at those other places and hopefully pinpoint it.  Thanks 

Sounds a bit stupid, but what's the best thing to use to clean up the engine bay/block of oil?

[south_bound]

21 hours ago, Albert27 said:

That's really helpful, thanks isetta.  The sump was replaced about 18 months ago so it's quite possible the leak is coming from there.  It was replaced because I also ruined the sump plug thread on my first oil change, you only make that mistake once!! 

Same here but I have persevered without changing the sump...or the plug for a while now, just stack a few washers to get the good part of the thread working.  It has a slight drip but I have got away with it so far.  As for the leak, I think it is a case of cleaning up any mess and keeping a eye for where it reappears.  Best to keep the engine under tray off so all you have to do is pop your head under when you remember to check.  Also by having the under tray off you could check for drops on the floor after being parked up a few days and trace that back up to where it is dripping from. 

[TomsFocus]

12 hours ago, Albert27 said:

Sounds a bit stupid, but what's the best thing to use to clean up the engine bay/block of oil?

Any degreaser is fine, you can buy proper engine degreaser from Halfords and the like but Kitchen cleaner works just as well, as long as it's a degreaser and not just an antibac lol.  An old toothbrush or dishbrush is ideal for working it into the rough surfaces of the block, then just rinse it off with water.

[Albert27]

Serviced the car today and got a good chance to take a closer look. There are two main obvious areas.  The lesser, being between the sealant on the sump and engine.  There is a small amount getting out there but it is small and not too much to be concerned with imo.  

The second area is the Turbo side of the oil filter housing, completely caked in oil. The non turbo side of the housing is still shiny.  There's also splatters in and around the vicinity of the turbo which makes me suspect the issue here could be the Turbo.  Photos to follow (might be a slight delay), but this is what the turbo looks like and just bear in mind this is the original turbo and has done a 166,000 miles!  Should there be this much crud around there?  

[Albert27]

[TomsFocus]

Hmm, I'm not sure what's leaking there to cause that sort of coverage!   

Looks like it might be the turbo oil drain (return) pipe leaking.  It's the one towards the back of the turbo, wrapped in silver heat wrap.  I think it has a clic-r clamp but if it's a jubilee it might be worth trying to tighten it.

The air intake piping will also be leaking as they all do, but doesn't usually cause that much splatter.

Any better ideas @iantt?

 

 

 

[iantt]

Check the metal intercooler pipe for a crack. But you need to wash it all off to see where it's leaking properly. A can of brake cleaner works wonders. 

[Tdci-Peter]

On 3/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Albert27 said:

The second area is the Turbo side of the Oil filter housing, completely caked in oil. The non turbo side of the housing is still shiny.  There's also splatters in and around the vicinity of the turbo which makes me suspect the issue here could be the Turbo.

Following on from what Ian said.

It is amazing how much oil seems to come out of a leak in one of the pressurised air intake or intercooler pipes. I had a split intercooler pipe that I patched up with an ali bandage held on by jubilee clips. It worked ok, but still managed to spray quite a lot of oil all over the parts of the engine near the repair. The car only uses a small amount of oil, about a litre in a year maybe, so it is not like there is a massive leak from the turbo. I guess it is mostly from the crankcase ventilation system.

The split happened in November 2017, much too cold then to muck about with a proper repair! It was the return pipe up from intercooler, and this is a real pig to replace on the 1.8, bumper off job. So it had to wait for a new hose till about August 2018, and there was quite a mess to clear up.

 

[Albert27]

56 minutes ago, iantt said:

Check the metal intercooler pipe for a crack. But you need to wash it all off to see where it's leaking properly. A can of brake cleaner works wonders. 

Is the pipe easily removed Ian to clean and inspect?

16 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Following on from what Ian said.

It is amazing how much oil seems to come out of a leak in one of the pressurised air intake or intercooler pipes. I had a split intercooler pipe that I patched up with an ali bandage held on by jubilee clips. It worked ok, but still managed to spray quite a lot of oil all over the parts of the engine near the repair. The car only uses a small amount of oil, about a litre in a year maybe, so it is not like there is a massive leak from the turbo. I guess it is mostly from the crankcase ventilation system.

The split happened in November 2017, much too cold then to muck about with a proper repair! It was the return pipe up from intercooler, and this is a real pig to replace on the 1.8, bumper off job. So it had to wait for a new hose till about August 2018, and there was quite a mess to clear up.

 

Have to say guys that there were random splatters over the gearbox too which i did think a little odd so I think the intercooler pipe theory may be a good one. Also there were drips down the intercooler pipe, I just presumed the turbo chucked it there.  MOT is due in May so I'll get to it in the next few weeks and report back.  Thanks for the input!  Would it fail on this?  It was only a minor last time but i know they've got a bit tighter.

[Tdci-Peter]

28 minutes ago, Albert27 said:

MOT is due in May so I'll get to it in the next few weeks and report back.  Thanks for the input!  Would it fail on this?  It was only a minor last time but i know they've got a bit tighter.

The current wording is:

You should fail a vehicle if a fluid leak creates a pool on the floor within 5 minutes that's more than 75mm in diameter or if there are many leaks which collectively leak fluid at the same rate.

See:

https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/class3457/Section-8-Nuisance.html#section_8.2.2.1

That sounds like quite a big leak to me.

I only recall one leak I had like that. I had just had the CH gasket done by a Vauxhall dealer (yes, it was one of those ).

I had to drive to the doctor's surgery in the next village. As I left, I noticed some nasty person had left a trail of oil in the car park. And along the road. And further along the road. And all the way to my village. The penny really dropped when I saw the trail going into my driveway!.

A quick look under the bonnet revealed almost no oil in the engine. The garage replaced the cam cover gasket, but this did not cure it. I diagnosed it was just the crankcase breather hose. It was slightly too long, a bit soft, and had kinked due to the way they had replaced it. But the bigger problem was that it, and the rest of the cam cover and hoses, were still full of sticky grey emulsion from the CH gasket water leak. I had to clean all that out. End of that problem, but more soon followed with that car. I have gone off Vauxhalls!

I am on 172k now on my much nicer Ford (compared to the Vauxhall!), only 8k ahead of you in the race to 200k.

[iantt]

I did quite a few of the metal intercooler pipes with cracks in when I worked on the MK2/2.5. 

[Albert27]

8 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I am on 172k now on my much nicer Ford (compared to the Vauxhall!), only 8k ahead of you in the race to 200k

The race is on!  😄 Just to scare you though, it's actually 166k so only 6k difference!  Watch your back 😉

[TomsFocus]

9 hours ago, Albert27 said:

Is the pipe easily removed Ian to clean and inspect?

Very easy, it's just got a jubilee clip each end, and then the 2 10mm bolts that you have to remove for the oil filter anyway.

The 1.8TDCi solid boost pipe is notorious for cracking at one of the brackets, I didn't realise it was an issue on the 1.6 as well though!

[FatHead1979]

1 hour ago, Albert27 said:

The race is on!  😄 Just to scare you though, it's actually 166k so only 6k difference!  Watch your back 😉

Mines currently on 159K (05 plate) and I was planning/expecting on getting to 200K miles fairly comfortably, the engine still runs well and does 58 MPG on a long steady run (measured brim to brim) but the original DMF is starting to rattle and dropping nearly a grand to do the clutch, DMF, water pump, timing belt and tensioner doesn't seem like such as wise idea on a car that's worth about £600 private sale (Cambelt was done early the 1st time round and is close to the 10 year mark).  It's a shame because the engine is still really strong. 

[Tdci-Peter]

47 minutes ago, 1979Damian said:

dropping nearly a grand to do the clutch, DMF, water pump, timing belt and tensioner doesn't seem like such as wise idea on a car that's worth about £600 private sale

I think that what the car is worth to me / you is more important than what it is worth to some unknown buyer!

My DMF sounds dreadfully clanky at times, and the clutch has had a lot of use, and rather a lot of abuse! I keep thinking DMF or the clutch are about to fail right away, but I have been thinking that for several years now, and it has just kept on working.

My car has a couple of extras: a heated steering wheel and an in-car engine information display being two unusual ones. The heated wheel is now no luxury for me, unfortunately. I am increasingly getting reynauds (white finger), and I doubt if I could drive a car in winter without that feature now. So I would not hesitate for more then a few seconds if faced with a £1000 bill for the clutch & DMF. The car owes me nothing, I paid £2700 for it in 2011!

[FatHead1979]

18 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I think that what the car is worth to me / you is more important than what it is worth to some unknown buyer!

My DMF sounds dreadfully clanky at times, and the clutch has had a lot of use, and rather a lot of abuse! I keep thinking DMF or the clutch are about to fail right away, but I have been thinking that for several years now, and it has just kept on working.

My car has a couple of extras: a heated steering wheel and an in-car engine information display being two unusual ones. The heated wheel is now no luxury for me, unfortunately. I am increasingly getting reynauds (white finger), and I doubt if I could drive a car in winter without that feature now. So I would not hesitate for more then a few seconds if faced with a £1000 bill for the clutch & DMF. The car owes me nothing, I paid £2700 for it in 2011!

I 100% agree that it's not just the monetary value that needs to be considered, unfortunately mine is also starting to suffer from good old MK2 rust and if I keep grinding it back I'll have no out sills left  plus the used gearbox I recently had fitted has a bit of a whine in 3rd and 5th so the fact I know it's not 100% also plays into my thinking.  I'll be sad to see it go when the time comes, although if I'm able to stretch to a MK4.5 2.2 TDCi Mondeo Titanium X Sport in pearlescent white it'll take the edge of my sadness somewhat! 

 

I hope to see yours pass 200K miles 

[Albert27]

4 hours ago, 1979Damian said:

Mines currently on 159K (05 plate) and I was planning/expecting on getting to 200K miles fairly comfortably, the engine still runs well and does 58 MPG on a long steady run (measured brim to brim) but the original DMF is starting to rattle and dropping nearly a grand to do the clutch, DMF, water pump, timing belt and tensioner doesn't seem like such as wise idea on a car that's worth about £600 private sale (Cambelt was done early the 1st time round and is close to the 10 year mark).  It's a shame because the engine is still really strong. 

Looks like you're in the race as well if the DMF holds out.  Excuse the lack of knowledge, but what is the DMF and what does it do?  Is it not changed as standard when the clutch is done?  

[FatHead1979]

10 minutes ago, Albert27 said:

Looks like you're in the race as well if the DMF holds out.  Excuse the lack of knowledge, but what is the DMF and what does it do?  Is it not changed as standard when the clutch is done?  

The DMF stands for dual mass flywheel and on diesels is almost always replaced when the clutch is replaced, the labour involved in doing a typical diesel clutch means it's generally considered to be rather silly not to.  The DMF helps the clutch cope with the extra torque and vibrations generated by modern diesels, I'm still on my original clutch so it's never been replaced.

 

As well as a pronounced rattle at idle (DMF) if I have to let the clutch out slowly I get a not very nice rumble (thrust/release bearing?) so it's definitely not overly happy at the moment but considering I paid £3200 7 years ago and other than the recent gearbox failure it's never left me stranded, I've more than got my money out of it.

[Albert27]

4 minutes ago, 1979Damian said:

The DMF stands for dual mass flywheel and on diesels is almost always replaced when the clutch is replaced, the labour involved in doing a typical diesel clutch means it's generally considered to be rather silly not to.  The DMF helps the clutch cope with the extra torque and vibrations generated by modern diesels, I'm still on my original clutch so it's never been replaced.

 

As well as a pronounced rattle at idle (DMF) if I have to let the clutch out gently I get a nice rumble (thrust/release bearing?) so it's definitely not overly happy at the moment but considering I paid £3200 7 years ago and other than the recent gearbox failure it's never left me stranded, I've more than got my money out of it.

Thanks for that mate.  

Would you consider doing any of that work yourself to save the £'s?  I agree with you both that it's more a case of what cars are worth to us rather than anyone else.  We know it's history, how it's been driven etc, I've never quite understood the mentality of repair more than car = buy new car.  I've always thought if the engine is sound and you know the car has life left in it then keep it going.  I guess rusting is slightly different though, if mine was going that way I'd think twice about big repairs.  It's 10.5 years old but haven't noticed any rust yet but then I never clean it so could all be hidden under the dirt lol

[FatHead1979]

28 minutes ago, Albert27 said:

Thanks for that mate.  

Would you consider doing any of that work yourself to save the £'s?  I agree with you both that it's more a case of what cars are worth to us rather than anyone else.  We know it's history, how it's been driven etc, I've never quite understood the mentality of repair more than car = buy new car.  I've always thought if the engine is sound and you know the car has life left in it then keep it going.  I guess rusting is slightly different though, if mine was going that way I'd think twice about big repairs.  It's 10.5 years old but haven't noticed any rust yet but then I never clean it so could all be hidden under the dirt lol

I'm not averse to attempting a big job, I've had the entire dashboard out before even though a few local garages gave it a swerve as it was too much like hard work!  But removing the gearbox just using ramps on the street is not my idea of a fun weekend.

1st owner had the "big" service done every year and I've always made sure it had done what it needed when it needed it so it's never wanted for anything.  I even renewed the pads, discs AND calipers last year with the intention of another 4 years of service (knowing the engine runs spot on it seemed sensible to do it seeing as I have a motorway commute these days) but once rust is no longer surface rust it's a body shop job to cut it out and it's just not worth it in the case of my car.  I even had the sodding rear trailing arm bushes (it was still on the originals) done which transformed the rear end handling.  Rather than part-ex it I might just strip it for parts  seeing as there's plenty of parts that are either less than 2 years old or still work spot on!  I'm kidding, I don't have anywhere to store it, plus I'd be gutted to see it torn to bits.  

To be honest, if the replacement gearbox had been 100% spot on I might have still considered dropping the £££s on it but I've got visions of dropping all the money and then having to pay 4-5 hours labour for another gearbox replacement.