car wont start? starter?

[gers87]

2013 1.6 tdci ford focus key start

Hi looking for a bit of help and advice about a year ago parked up and then car wouldn't start changed the starter(single loud click) and of i went then, on fireworks nights parked up and same thing happened again green flag came jumps started me tells me to get a new a battery it was still original 1 from the manufacturer so done that..., then in december again parked to jump in the shop came out and car wouldnt noticed the brake was solid again phone green flag  after about half an hour i try it again and boom away we go, same thing happneded again at work just 2 week ago but ledt it overnight then away we go again, and it then again last night outside my mums  but this it is not starting again

same issue single loud click but nothing,no engine management light, was thinking a bad grounding or fuel pump, starter was new when it was installed really need help thanks, as any search i do for the symptons a bad starter/solenoid seems to be the most common diagnosis

[stef123]

If it were me looking at it, before anything gets disturbed I would load test the cable to the starter motor and the ground from the block to the body. 

[gers87]

Thanks for reply how do I that 

[isetta]

this is unlikely to be it, but is possible. Years ago I had 1984 Mk3 Escort 1.3cvh engine.  Problem - when engine was hot, the starter motor seemed to be stuck. It would start when cold. I replaced starter motor and it was OK after that. But wanting to know what was wrong I dismantled the starter motor. There were scraping marks on the big magnets that are fixed on the inside of the cylinder casing and scrape marks on the armature (the bit with the windings on that spins when the starter motor is actuated). As far as I could tell the clearance between the outer magnets and the armature was too small and when hot, the expansion cause the armature to snag the outer magnets too much so the starter would not turn. 

[gers87]

Hey anything you have to offer is currently better in 0 I have to Isetta 

[Tdci-Peter]

7 hours ago, gers87 said:

was thinking a bad grounding or fuel pump, starter was new when it was installed really need help thanks, as any search i do for the symptons a bad starter/solenoid seems to be the most common diagnosis

To check the cables, start with a visual & feel test. Just follow the heavy cables from battery +ve to starter, and from battery negative to the grounding lug on the engine, usually near the starter motor. Look for corroded terminals or visible cable damage, check connections are tight, and also feel the cable, especially at the ends. Cables can break inside the insulation, they will feel weak & floppy if broken.

I had intermittent starting failure, it was the solenoid. I managed to buy just the solenoid, but it took a lot of finding!

With care, and ideally the help of an assistant, it is possible to use a multimeter to check for voltage drops in the cables, and for voltage at the starter motor while trying to crank the engine. Earth cables are easy enough. But decent insulated clips are needed to check the positive leads, short circuits on these can cause fires!

[Stevesixty7]

For what it's worth, the only time I've experienced this was with my old 1968 Mark 1 Escort. It did it whether hot or cold. It could be solenoid or starter, or even both, however unlikely. I replaced the solenoid, but it continued. I replaced the starter motor which sorted it, due to missing teeth on the old one. I had to bump start the car on a few occasions beforehand. It would lock as well. The starter would lock onto the flywheel, and I'd have to rock it free, which is harder than it sounds, and can potentially lose even more teeth. I've done the screwdriver across the solenoid and everything. However, that was a car that's almost my age 😂 Wish I still had it.

[stef123]

14 hours ago, gers87 said:

Thanks for reply how do I that 

Needs to be done with a load tester. I normally check that starter motor wiring can pull 2-300 amps. Voltage drop test could also be used to check wiring but better off with a load test as you don't know if the starter motor itself is trying to pull a load.

[gers87]

hi wee update disconnected the battery last night then reconnected it today and it started twice before it didnt start anymore, could the key be the problem because the has seen better days its currently held together with tape although it has had a new battery in the fob thanks again for any help

[stef123]

Bring it to Fife and I’ll look at it for you lol 

[gers87]

Got wee update so I got between a 1/4and half 1/2 on the earth on the starter and and felt I could have tightened all day to the earth from the battery on the chassis of the car the car got a slight in one of bolts holding the starter but not even a 1/4 also and the car started so to be honest am none the wiser thanks

[gers87]

hi sorry to bring this back from the dead but its done it again a good few times recently so i took out the starter and checked it with a battery booster pack and seems to be fine the solenoid popped out and the wheel turned, i then checked the continuity of the positive cable and had continuity to the terminal that fits to the starter and it was ok ,i then checked continuity of the negative to engine block(cleaned up connections) and again fine, also checked the fuse and relay to bit that connect to starter and it was fine all continuity was done with a set of test lamps with a bell set anyone any idea what i check next

just to say the fault i go to start the car and all i hear is a single loud click no crank(this has been happening for over a year) a new battery was installed in november 

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, gers87 said:

the fault i go to start the car and all i hear is a single loud click no crank

I suspect the solenoid contact, or the starter motor brushes. Both can become dirty or worn enough so that they will pass enough current to turn an unloaded motor, but as soon as the pinion tries to turn the flywheel, then it gives up.

When I have tested starter motors off the car, I have secured them very firmly to a work bench. They should start with quite a jerk, I suspect it would jump off the bench if not fixed down.

I used a power supply capable of passing a known current of about 10A through the motor to test my solenoid. A multimeter revealed a couple of volts drop at this current, which is a resistance of say 0.2 ohms. Far to high to pass the 100A or more needed to turn the engine over.

The problem is that these low resistances are quite difficult to measure, they look like good short circuits to most continuity testers.

But if the cables are physically sound, connections ( + and -) are clean and tight, the battery is in good nick, and the starter relay in the engine bay fuse box is working reliably (so always gives a good, loud click at the motor), then that just leaves the motor / solenoid assembly. Because of difficulties in diagnosis, and poor availability of individual parts, this assembly is usually just replaced as one item.

[stef123]

I think the problem with diagnosing this to most is limitations in diagnostic equipment.

an oscilloscope and amp clamp could prove a dead spot in the starter, a load tester could prove the vehicle wiring to carry current.

the only readily available option is to do volt drop testing on the wiring with a multimeter. Don’t bother with resistance or continuity checking, it doesn’t prove anything. 

[gers87]

So you reckon just put in a new starter because although it seems fine when out the car it could be different when under load conditions? The starter relay should be fine i put in a fiesta and the fiesta started 

9 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I suspect the solenoid contact, or the starter motor brushes. Both can become dirty or worn enough so that they will pass enough current to turn an unloaded motor, but as soon as the pinion tries to turn the flywheel, then it gives up.

When I have tested starter motors off the car, I have secured them very firmly to a work bench. They should start with quite a jerk, I suspect it would jump off the bench if not fixed down.

I used a power supply capable of passing a known current of about 10A through the motor to test my solenoid. A multimeter revealed a couple of volts drop at this current, which is a resistance of say 0.2 ohms. Far to high to pass the 100A or more needed to turn the engine over.

The problem is that these low resistances are quite difficult to measure, they look like good short circuits to most continuity testers.

But if the cables are physically sound, connections ( + and -) are clean and tight, the battery is in good nick, and the starter relay in the engine bay fuse box is working reliably (so always gives a good, loud click at the motor), then that just leaves the motor / solenoid assembly. Because of difficulties in diagnosis, and poor availability of individual parts, this assembly is usually just replaced as one item.

 

[gers87]

7 hours ago, stef123 said:

I think the problem with diagnosing this to most is limitations in diagnostic equipment.

an oscilloscope and amp clamp could prove a dead spot in the starter, a load tester could prove the vehicle wiring to carry current.

the only readily available option is to do volt drop testing on the wiring with a multimeter. Don’t bother with resistance or continuity checking, it doesn’t prove anything. 

I am a spark my thoughts are its a poor connection somewhere in the starter circuit 

But i am unsure would happen if say it faulty fuel pump or faulty ignation would i still just hear the loud click

[Westville]

A loud click and then nothing else is a sure indication of either a failed (or failing) solenoid and or a jammed starter motor - years ago we used to rock the car in gear to free them up.

It can be caused by inadequate power under load - poor battery, poor battery connections, poor earth strapping and/or failed components eg solenoid or starter gear

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, gers87 said:

So you reckon just put in a new starter because although it seems fine when out the car it could be different when under load conditions?

I hate changing expensive bits on suspicion alone. If you had a clamp-on ammeter (DC) as suggested by Stef, then it would identify if enough current was flowing. With a good battery, good wiring and good solenoid, I would expect over 400A to flow if the motor was not turning. As the motor spins off load, it can't be jammed, but shorts in the windings, or a really carbon filled or worn commutator could mean that high current did not result in high torque.

If the current is low, say under 100A (still high by normal standards!), voltage drop tests could check if it was in the wiring or in the solenoid / motor.

Special 4 terminal (Kelvin connection) ohm meters also exist that can measure the low resistances in a starter circuit. But unless you can borrow or improvise one, it would be cheaper to just change the motor.

One other thought, I greased the motor bearings pinion movement system, including the shaft through the pinion. Sticky dirt (clutch debris, rust, water & old grease make a good glue) can make it very stiff to turn under load. But I doubt if that is the problem here.

[stef123]

My intended use of the clamp on meter wasn't to measure current as such (not as a value anyway), with a scope you can see any bad spots on the commutator with how the waveform looks was more my reasoning. Load testing and volt drop testing are without doubt the best way to fault find here.