2010 focus 1.6tdci - error messages and not starting

[Chris001]

Afternoon folks,

Have had the car for 2 days, the first day no problems but the second day the complete opposite. I have read many posts on this but cant find exactly what im looking for so apologies if this is just a repeat.

ok so very nearly got home after a 45 min drive pulled up to a round about changed down gear and the car cut out with a dash message of "engine malfunction" and the eps light illuminated, turned the car off and on again and it seemed ok (but eps light stayed on), then 2 mins later whilst I was low speed driving the car cut again and this time was the message was "power steering malfunction" - turned the car off and started again no problem (eps light stayed on)...got home.

so next day tried to start the car but I hear warning bongs and another error message on the dash this time its "transmission malfunction"..so key to off then tried to start again this time same warning bongs but this time its "engine malfunction". The car would not even turn over. The small red light was also flashing on the dash when it was displaying these error messages

I managed to get the car started only after doing the join battery cables together for 10 mins which cleared whatever was not allowing the car to start.  After it started it all seemed ok again with no dash messages. Did a 5 min drive with no probs at all.

I guess its can be very difficult to diagnose with what seems an intermittent problem (or not) but if anyone can give me some advice here it would be much appreciated. I am getting  code reader this weekend so im hoping to get some data if this happens again.

Thanks in advance

Cheers

[Tdci-Peter]

37 minutes ago, Chris001 said:

I am getting  code reader

If you are planning to use Forscan, try to get an ELM that can access the MS-CAN bus, and is stated to be Forscan compatible. The ELM327 is a very widely interpreted quasi-standard, not all will work. The ones with MS-CAN access are often called "modified", and have a visible switch. It is not essential, but does give you the ability to read codes from the BCM (aka GEM or passenger fusebox), the RCM (seat belts system) other body stuff like radios, door modules, etc, if relevant.

One supplier with a decent reputation is:

https://tunnelrat-electronics.fwscart.com/

[Chris001]

1 hour ago, Tdci-Peter said:

If you are planning to use Forscan, try to get an ELM that can access the MS-CAN bus, and is stated to be Forscan compatible. The ELM327 is a very widely interpreted quasi-standard, not all will work. The ones with MS-CAN access are often called "modified", and have a visible switch. It is not essential, but does give you the ability to read codes from the BCM (aka GEM or passenger fusebox), the RCM (seat belts system) other body stuff like radios, door modules, etc, if relevant.

One supplier with a decent reputation is:

https://tunnelrat-electronics.fwscart.com/

Thanks again Tdci-Peter, I used your link to buy the WIFI model. cheers for the info

[Chris001]

code reader arrived this morning and no codes were found or pending.  Had a small event on the way home last night where the revs dropped whilst driving and the engine light flashed up but as quick as it came on went off again and the car drove normal but even this did not log any codes that I could see.

 

Would like to ask a question about gear change over revving. So when the car is cold usually between 1, 2 and 3 its seems to rev even though my foot has come off the gas peddle. Like I said only usually happens when car is cold but I did see the same thing happen when the car had fully warmed up.

I did read this is normal? something about get the car up to temp for emmisions....is that correct or is it another issue I have?

Thanks again for any info

[Chris001]

Replaced the front discs on the car and I notice some black tape around the wires on the abs sensor (o/s) which makes me think its had an issue.

Also when I was doing a hard brake test on the road there was quite a big air noise or air compression noise coming from the passenger side (is this normal?) the car did seem to stop ok but almost immediately after that the revs dropped and the eps light illuminated on the dash, did another hard brake test and the same thing, the revs drop but then come back up to normal.  When I kept my foot on the accelerator when the revs drop the car was like a bucking bronco! 

Its almost like my old 89 escort rs turbo, when the knock sensor senses incorrect detonation it just cuts the ignition and it feels exactly like that but the revs will just pick back up again.

Could this abs sensor with the tape around be a part or the source of my problems? Im going to get another one and see what happens.

I also have not had any joy in getting any codes come up with the new hand held, but I did a dash board diagnostic and it did come up with D900 & E510. I have read that these dash codes are not very good is that correct?

Thanks for any information

[isetta]

My reply is possible not very helpful. My brother has 2008 Focus mk2.5  1.8tdci. He keeps having problems with power misbehaving and ESP light coming on. My understanding is that these cars all have ESP as standard and it can be turned off in the menu using the button on end of indicator stalk. My brother tells me that each time you start the car it puts the ESP back on. 

I assume, but I don't really know, that the ESP uses the ABS sensors to detect differences in rotation of the wheels. So I did wonder if it had ABS sensor problems but the ABS light never comes on (except as normal when you first turn the ignition on).

So I have told him to find the ABS fuse and remove it, and see if there is a ESP fuse and remove that.  But he can't be bothered to try that, he just emails me everyday moaning about his car not working properly.

Anyway the fuse removal might be something for you to try. Of course you don't really want ABS disabled for long (but we didn't all kill ourselves driving non-ABS cars a few year ago).  But it might be an idea to try in order to narrow down where the problem is. Or it might achieve nothing. But at least it's a no cost attempt at something. 

I suspect the power steering warning was  a red herring. I think if the engine stopped whilst you were rolling, and you moved the steering wheel whilst rolling then you get the warning. I say this based on my previous 1.6tdci fiesta which kept cutting out due to blocked fuel filter and I kept getting the steering warning as I coasted to a stop, steering it off the road.

[Tdci-Peter]

7 hours ago, Chris001 said:

I also have not had any joy in getting any codes come up with the new hand held, but I did a dash board diagnostic and it did come up with D900 & E510. I have read that these dash codes are not very good is that correct?

D900 is DTC U1900, which is a rather common code that does not mean much on its own. Just a general communications error.

E510 is DTC U2510, which is a PATS (immobiliser) error, that the ECU & IC (dash) could not communicate the key code.

You did seem to have a PATS problem (no start, red light flashing) in the 1st post. They could both be quite old DTCs.

With a good code reader it should be possible to clear these codes and see if and when they return.

If the code reader you are using is Forscan with the ELM327, I am a bit surprised it is not reading these codes. It usually gets just about everything. Many generic handheld readers will only read the more basic engine codes.

If the ABS wheel sensors are misbehaving badly enough to cause problems, they will usually generate DTCs in the ABS unit. But generic readers will not get these. The code would identify the suspect wheel.

One possible cause of all these odd errors is voltage drops due to bad wiring or connectors, especially the heavy earth wire to the engine, or a dodgy battery or alternator. The ABS and EHPAS steering unit both take heavy and rapidly changing currents from the system when active.

The ABS unit performs 3 functions in the Focus:

Basic ABS, which can not be disabled (except by pulling the fuse as suggested by Isetta),

Traction control, which also can not be fully disabled,

ESP, which can be disabled via the IC (dash) menu. ESP is an kind of combination of traction control and ABS designed for bends, and adds steering wheel position and car rate of turn (yaw) sensors to the inputs to the ABS unit. It is intended to prevent spins.

The ABS also provides the data for the dash speedometer.

[isetta]

"ESP, which can be disabled via the IC (dash) menu. ESP is an kind of combination of traction control and ABS designed for bends, and adds steering wheel position and car rate of turn (yaw) sensors to the inputs to the ABS unit. It is intended to prevent spins"

So Peter, if the engine power is erratic with the ESP light coming on do you reckon this could be something to do with a sensor on the steering (position, yaw?) and where to look to check this. Prior to this problem the car had an alternator problem and my brother did manage to drive it home with a very low battery with things not working properly due to low voltage and one thing that did stop working on that journey was the power steering (which is electric fluid pump on his 1.8tdci I believe), of course it worked again once battery charged up (and alternator pulley replaced).

So can you tell me exactly where to look for checking steering sensors, connectors, wiring etc.   Thanks   (2008 Focus mk2.5 1.8tdci Estate)

Not really trying to hijack Chris's thread here, it sounds like he might have same problem so anything out of this that benefits me may benefit him also.

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, isetta said:

So can you tell me exactly where to look for checking steering sensors, connectors, wiring etc.   Thanks   (2008 Focus mk2.5 1.8tdci Estate)

The steering wheel angle sensor is mounted next to the clockspring unit on the steering column. You have to remove the steering wheel, then there is the sensor behind it. It is mounted to the clockspring, and comes out as part of that assembly if I recall.

The yaw rate sensor is mounted under the carpet underneath the driver's seat. According to Haynes you have to remove the seat, a couple of bits of trim & lift the carpet. A yaw rate sensor is basically some sort of electronic gyroscope type of device, probably using a vibrating strip instead of a rotating wheel though.

Chris's car problems sound a bit too general to be these sensors though, they only affect the ESP, as far as I know. He has had transmission failure warnings, engine failure warnings, PATS related errors possibly, and ABS/ESP problems. That is why I am suggesting general electrical voltage faults as a possible cause, they can affect all the electronics in the car.

[isetta]

Thanks peter, I will pass this on to my brother whose car it is .But in a couple of days time he is going on holidya for three weeks (not in the Focus) so it could be sometime before I report back, but I will report back at some point as I hate reading threads that are left hanging and no one knows if the info in the thread helped resolve the issue or not.

[Chris001]

Thank you isetta for your reply, I will look into the fuses this weekend. I did the turn off the ESP but the fault still occurred

Also thanks again Peter for your detailed response, Hopefully I can setup Forscan with the ELM327 this weekend to dial into this. I will also check the earth leads and take some voltage reading from the battery.

I did have an issue to day where the revs dropped a couple of times and then the ESP light came on but this time I lost power so I guess it went into limp mode, felt like I had no turbo. Turned the car off and then on and it seemed to be ok after that.  Plugged the reader in and this time it generated fault code P042F - Exhaust gas recirculation 'A' control stuck closed. (ive attached a pic) After a bit of reading these valves can be cleaned and still an issue but maybe a faulty sensor.  I did notice on the weekend that my turbo is leaking oil from the inside  and im wondering if this is sooting or clogging things up. 

At least I have something now and was wondering if this is the route of all my probs and hoping its not a new fault!

 

Once again I appreciate any info, thanks

 

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, Chris001 said:

I did notice on the weekend that my turbo is leaking oil from the inside  and im wondering if this is sooting or clogging things up. 

I suspect all turbos that have done a decent mileage will weep a little oil, it is not really possible to fully seal bearings running at 100,000 rpm or more. But the bigger source of oil in that area is the crankcase breather system. The pipe from this joins just before the turbo. There is also always some oil from this, which does increase slowly as the engine wears, and more blow-by gas gets past the pistons. It goes all through the intercooler & inlet manifold

This oil combines with soot from the exhaust gas to make a sticky deposit that can jam EGR valves. It is a universal problem on most engines. If the oil level is not dropping faster than normal for the age/mileage of the car, then there is little that can be done, except try to clean any badly affected parts, like the EGR valve.

[Chris001]

Just wanted to add a bit more on the turbo oil leak as the more I think about this the more I think its the root of my problem.

I don't seem not get any smoke out the back on start up or whilst planting my foot.  The oil seemed to be leaking on the intercooler side as you could see a small puddle on the turbo housing when the pipe was removed and also the pipe that feeds the intercooler looked caked in oil at the bottom bend.

[Chris001]

8 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I suspect all turbos that have done a decent mileage will weep a little oil, it is not really possible to fully seal bearings running at 100,000 rpm or more. But the bigger source of oil in that area is the crankcase breather system. The pipe from this joins just before the turbo. There is also always some oil from this, which does increase slowly as the engine wears, and more blow-by gas gets past the pistons. It goes all through the intercooler & inlet manifold

This oil combines with soot from the exhaust gas to make a sticky deposit that can jam EGR valves. It is a universal problem on most engines. If the oil level is not dropping faster than normal for the age/mileage of the car, then there is little that can be done, except try to clean any badly affected parts, like the EGR valve.

That's great info Peter, thanks again. I will have a good look around this weekend with all the other bits to do as well (sorry girlfriend!!)

is there some kind of additive I can put in with my fuel to help with these deposits? and whilst im on about additives are any of these fuel injector cleaners any good also to be added with your fuel?

Thank you

 

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, Chris001 said:

is there some kind of additive I can put in with my fuel to help with these deposits? and whilst im on about additives are any of these fuel injector cleaners any good also to be added with your fuel?

tbh, I have not heard many verifiable reports of success with fuel additives for cleaning on diesels. As the fuel burns almost instantly once injected direct into the cylinder, the additive would have to survive this to do any good. Very little, if any, would get to the EGR.

DPF or EGR cleaners can be sprayed direct into the inlet, sometimes they apparently work wonders, but I think this is rare, and usually there is no benefit. Again, it has to pass though the engine, being burnt at very high temperature, before it gets to the EGR or DPF.

I would try to clean off as much external oil and dirt as I could get at. This can hide or even cause, other problems. And clean out the inside of whatever hoses and ducts I could get to without major dismantling. My crankcase vent and oil separator system gets this once a year. The 1.6TDCI is a bit different, I think most of this system is in the cam cover / inlet manifold which is a pig to remove, but some hoses should be accessible.

 

[Micro]

On 5/8/2019 at 8:26 AM, isetta said:

"ESP, which can be disabled via the IC (dash) menu. ESP is an kind of combination of traction control and ABS designed for bends, and adds steering wheel position and car rate of turn (yaw) sensors to the inputs to the ABS unit. It is intended to prevent spins"

I'm not totally sure what the ESP menu item does. I disabled it in last years snow, provoked a slide, and the ESP was definitely still active (flashing light). Maybe it just increases the threshold, but it ruined the chance of me having any kind of play in the snow 😛

Do you notice what lights come on? Does it ever say "Engine Fault"?  Wondering if there may be a loose can wire/connection somewhere (but they normally throw U codes).

[TomsFocus]

10 hours ago, Micro said:

I'm not totally sure what the ESP menu item does. I disabled it in last years snow, provoked a slide, and the ESP was definitely still active (flashing light). Maybe it just increases the threshold, but it ruined the chance of me having any kind of play in the snow 😛

 

It's mainly the traction control part that's reduced in the dash menu.  On snow & ice you need to allow a bit of slip to get moving, otherwise both wheels slip and get braked by the ESP system so you don't go anywhere.  It's not fully switched off because you still want the EDL (electronic diff lock) effect if you happen to try and pull away with one wheel spinning on an icy puddle.  I'm not sure how smart the system is on the Mk2, but ESP can be dangerous on ice.  Essentially it brakes one wheel to 'pivot' the car back onto a straight course.  Which works well when you have grip, in a low grip scenario it can cause a spin instead!    I fully guarantee it's not switchable on these for 'fun' though!

[Chris001]

15 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

tbh, I have not heard many verifiable reports of success with fuel additives for cleaning on diesels. As the fuel burns almost instantly once injected direct into the cylinder, the additive would have to survive this to do any good. Very little, if any, would get to the EGR.

DPF or EGR cleaners can be sprayed direct into the inlet, sometimes they apparently work wonders, but I think this is rare, and usually there is no benefit. Again, it has to pass though the engine, being burnt at very high temperature, before it gets to the EGR or DPF.

I would try to clean off as much external oil and dirt as I could get at. This can hide or even cause, other problems. And clean out the inside of whatever hoses and ducts I could get to without major dismantling. My crankcase vent and oil separator system gets this once a year. The 1.6TDCI is a bit different, I think most of this system is in the cam cover / inlet manifold which is a pig to remove, but some hoses should be accessible.

 

ok, Thanks for that Peter I was going to try to remove the EGR for a good clean up anyway but thought a periodic additive would help reduce this build up again, but tbh I may look into a recon turbo for the oil leak as I guess the build up will just start again.  I shall report back after this weekend. cheers

[Chris001]

ok so did a bunch of thinks to the car on the weekend (oil & filter + water pump belts and tension pulley ect) and I noticed under the air box assembly there are several earthing points one of which was really loose and literally just pulled away from its crimp with no effort, so obviously repaired it.  Drove the car back 30 mins last night and 45 mins to work today and I had no problems at all.  Tried to make the car do its "cut out thing" but nothing.  I was finding that if I changed to second gear from first and put my foot down it would cause the rev drop/cut out thing but as I said this is not happening now or atm!. I did not take the EGR out as I ran out of time with the other bits. Im hoping that this one loose earth has sorted my problem, although its seems a bit of an easy fix for the issue I was getting, but who knows time will tell.

Can I ask question this time about performance loss after a 45 min motorway journey it feels like the turbo is giving me reduced power (not like limp mode) the turbo is there but just seems like ive lost about 20/30% of its pull.  Could this be the fact after my 45  min motorway journey everything is up to full operating temperature and the old turbo and intercooler hosed are collapsing a bit? I guess this would cause an apparent lack of power when hot. Is this a possiblility? The car is fine when cold.

Again thanks for any comments

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, Chris001 said:

Tried to make the car do its "cut out thing" but nothing.  I was finding that if I changed to second gear from first and put my foot down it would cause the rev drop/cut out thing but as I said this is not happening now or atm!. I did not take the EGR out as I ran out of time with the other bits. Im hoping that this one loose earth has sorted my problem, although its seems a bit of an easy fix for the issue I was getting, but who knows time will tell.

Can I ask question this time about performance loss after a 45 min motorway journey it feels like the turbo is giving me reduced power (not like limp mode) the turbo is there but just seems like ive lost about 20/30% of its pull. 

The main symptoms you had, of odd steering and ABS related errors, could easily be caused by a dodgy earth. I hope that is the answer, too.

Could the slight power drop be caused by a DPF regen? While the car was misbehaving, with stored error codes, it probably would not attempt any regens. All engine systems have to be in full working order for a regen. So it is likely to attempt one once it gets fully up to temperature. Assuming it has a DPF, of course.

If the turbo is under performing, then usually you will get errors like P0299 *turbo underboost" stored, which can be read by Forscan. That was certainly the case last year on my car, it turned out to be a broken hose to the MAP sensor. 1.6TDCI does not have a similar hose. But it could be worth having a feel around all the rubber intercooler hoses for splits. Though usually you can hear these as a hissing noise at full power.

 

[Chris001]

48 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

The main symptoms you had, of odd steering and ABS related errors, could easily be caused by a dodgy earth. I hope that is the answer, too.

Could the slight power drop be caused by a DPF regen? While the car was misbehaving, with stored error codes, it probably would not attempt any regens. All engine systems have to be in full working order for a regen. So it is likely to attempt one once it gets fully up to temperature. Assuming it has a DPF, of course.

If the turbo is under performing, then usually you will get errors like P0299 *turbo underboost" stored, which can be read by Forscan. That was certainly the case last year on my car, it turned out to be a broken hose to the MAP sensor. 1.6TDCI does not have a similar hose. But it could be worth having a feel around all the rubber intercooler hoses for splits. Though usually you can hear these as a hissing noise at full power.

 

Thanks Peter for your comments , I will have a closer look at the hoses. I still have not got Forscan running yet I keep meaning to do it but it always seems im short on time!

Ok, silly question time, how do I know if I have DPF?

[Tdci-Peter]

13 hours ago, Chris001 said:

how do I know if I have DPF?

The DPF is just below the turbo, at the front of the engine. Hard to see clearly from above, it is hidden by the turbo heatshield and all the ducting. It has small pipes coming out of it, with small hoses attached. The best photo I could find is below, it is the vertical silver cylinder. I am not quite sure if the photo is the DV6 (your engine in a Mk2/2a 1.6TDCI) or the DV6c used in the Mk3 Focus, but the DPF location looks to be similar.

[TomsFocus]

57 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

The DPF is just below the turbo, at the front of the engine. Hard to see clearly from above, it is hidden by the turbo heatshield and all the ducting. It has small pipes coming out of it, with small hoses attached. The best photo I could find is below, it is the vertical silver cylinder. I am not quite sure if the photo is the DV6 (your engine in a Mk2/2a 1.6TDCI) or the DV6c used in the Mk3 Focus, but the DPF location looks to be similar.

I'm pretty sure all of the 1.6 TDCi's have a DPF by 2010.  All 110bhp models had them from 2004, but the 90bhp models didn't have one until around 2009.

With hydraulic power steering I think that engine is actually from a PSA car rather than a Ford!  Can't imagine the 8v ever came with hydraulic PAS either so presumably it is the 16v version from a Picasso or 407 for example.  The DPF is the same shape though.  

[Chris001]

Thank you Peter, it seems as I do have a DPF then, there is a bunch of circular shielding below the turbo. Would you know if this is the system that has an additive top up tank?

 

Im still getting this power reduction after my motorway journey and maybe I underestimated yesterday how much acceleration it is taking away and tbh it feels like there is no turbo at all . Its pretty much the same as what I described the other day as 'limp mode', but im still able to do 85 on the motor way, if your car has been put into limp mode could you still do 85mph?,  after the motorway on normal roads it seems im missing the turbo pull and im doing my mpg in by putting my foot down to get a decent or a bit of acceleration going, whereas when the car is cold or a short journey you don't really need much throttle when the turbo is pulling you up the road.  Peter you mentioned the possibility of the regeneration process going on but im not sure this should take so much away from accelerating?

Sorry to keep pumping the question in but on a different subject - power steering whine. I understand its an electric motor that drives the hydraulic rams? in any case it is quite noisy in the cabin.  You can hear it wind down when you have not used the steering for about 10ish seconds but then as soon as you steer again (no surprise) you can here it activate again but has a constant whine that is quiet audible from inside and outside the car.  I looked at the fluid level which seemed to be ok and did read that the hoses themselves can cause this whine?

Just to add that again for the second day I have not experienced any cutting out or rev dropping etc. it looks like it was deffo that loose earth wire

Thanks for any comments or suggestions.

 

[Tdci-Peter]

3 hours ago, Chris001 said:

Would you know if this is the system that has an additive top up tank?

It seems there was a transition period from late 2009 to 2011. Euro 5 cars had a catalytic DPF with no additive. Euro 4 cars had Eolys additive DPFs right up to the end of Mk2a production around 2011. I think the vehicle information plates give the Euro rating somewhere. Or you could try logging in to Ford ETIS system. This can provide very limited information to private owners.

A bit more in:

 

If the car is in a deliberate reduced power mode, the so called limp home mode, then I am sure there will always be a warning light or message and DTCs stored. The ECU will not reduce power without good reason, and will always indicate that for garage diagnosis.

Minor problems can reduce power directly due to their effect, but may not flag up an error. For minor problems, DTS can still be stored even if there is no dash indication.

If the lack of power repeats consistently, it is less likely to be a regen.

Forscan can give quite a lot of info about what the ECU thinks about the condition of the DPF, and I think even a guesstimate of the Eolys level, if applicable. I would want to get it working as soon as possible, because these additive DPFs are very sensitive to problems that may mean lack of additive, or failure to regen.