Adaptive cruise control, dangerous

[Blatto]

6 hours ago, Paulkp said:

Lots of valid points posted on this topic - should it move to "General Ford Related Discussions" ?

Yes it probably should be moved to another area. I originally posted on here as this is the forum I usually visit the most. Was forgetting it could apply to many models.

 

4 hours ago, ShamusUK said:

I find that even with the 4 car setting, i'm always feeling anxious when using adaptive cruise.

I'm not surprised as it's only just about the bare minimum. I try and leave at least 3 seconds gap to get a better view of the road ahead to allow more timely anticipation of any incidents.

I'm not sure why the Ford system has such short distances. Someone touted the idea that it may be a range limit on the detector but I have seen youtube videos of a VW, think it was a Golf or maybe a Polo, that was safely following at around 3 seconds and he then showed how to increase it to about 5 seconds. So the technology is available.

15 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Then, is there still, in small print in the manual, the usual proviso that these gadgets are driver aids, and that the driver retains full responsibility

Yes, but the problem is if you had the ford system set on setting 1 at the suicidal gap  of 1 second and then decided to take the full responsibilty of the braking for  yourself you'd be so close you wouldn't have a chance to avoid a collision.

 

6 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

or if there's something else I should be doing to ensure a big enough gap as it's not possible to work out the 2 second rule backwards.

One thing you can try is if you are passing a motorway exit that you are not going to take is use the 3..2..1  countdown markers just before the exit, they are spaced at 100 metres (or maybe yards, not much difference) as you are level with marker 2 look in your rear view mirror (if it's safe to do so obviously 😉 ) and see how far back the 3 marker looks, that would be about 3 seconds at 70mph. Or if there are any sections of Motorways with the safe gap chevrons still painted on the road in your area, use that as a guide. Not sure they still exist though?

 

On 12/20/2019 at 2:58 PM, jbell said:

One time the 'increase speed' button got stuck down

That's very a very scary feeling I bet.

 

[TomsFocus]

@Blatto. Very good idea about the countdown markers, will try that next time!

No chevrons around here but they might be Motorway only?  There aren't any motorways in Suffolk, it's all dual carriageways here.

[Stoney871]

Lots of valid points posted on this topic - should it move to "General Ford Related Discussions" ?

Done.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Paulkp]

On 12/21/2019 at 9:59 AM, TomsFocus said:

I've noticed this come up a few times in this thread.  I often pull back a bit soon after a dual carriageway overtake to avoid holding everyone up in the overtaking lane (I'm usually on cruise at an indicated 70mph)...  I always wait until I can see at least their headlights in the rear view mirror though, and as I'm maintaining that speed the gap is constantly widening so never thought of it as an issue.  Just wondered if the headlights in the mirror is far enough or if there's something else I should be doing to ensure a big enough gap as it's not possible to work out the 2 second rule backwards.

I was taught that - "not before you can see headlights in rear view mirror".  I did a couple of "Defensive Driving" courses as provided by my employer and this was one of the points.

Theoretically when you move back into a lane after overtaking, you need a four second gap between the two vehicles that you are about to slot between, so that you are two seconds in front, and two behind, but as you are travelling faster than the trailing vehicle, you can get away with less behind.

Getting back to tailgating, I have wondered if this is because if you drive an SUV, the distance perception is affected ?  It does seem to that positioning seems to be worse now, with vehicles in lane 3 of a motorway tending to drive closer to moving traffic in lane 2 rather than the fixed armco that does not move !

[Dave Ruff]

My adaptive cruise control is unpredictable and dangerous.  Often, it fails to recognize that there is a car ahead of me and fails to slow down at all creating dangerous situations.  It is a 2018 Taurus SHO.  I previously had a 2012 Lincoln MKS with adaptive cruise control that worked wonderfully.  I assumed that the 2018 Ford model of the car would at least be as good.  It's untrustworthy.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.  A typical situation would be that I'm following a car under adaptive cruise (going at a speed that is less than that at which I set it) and that car in front of me changes lanes.  There is a car immediately in front of that car going the same speed and my car acts as if it is not even there and speeds up to get to the set speed.  Sometimes, I test it to see how close it will let me get (even with the cruise distance set at maximum), and it gets dangerously close while continuing to accelerate.  I can't wait until I switch back to a Lincoln.

[DaveT70]

On 8/1/2019 at 7:26 PM, Blatto said:

The rest of the car was great and I'll definitely be getting one, but not with a suicidal/homicidal cruise control.

It's not suicidal at all, you're just not used to it.

It sets one, two or three car gap, if something happens in front of you it will brake before you could even think about taking your foot of the throttle.

It does work best with automatic transmission though.

The Focus system with automatic transmission is even better still, it even steers the car for you and keeps it centred in the lane and will come to a complete stop if the traffic stops and pull away again automatically.

[Eliterox]

I always use mine at max distance settings. It does work pretty well and once you get to know how it works then i can tell it is pretty safe.

As with any driving assistance, this is an AID so you should never take it for granted. I always have my foot ready to brake when the ACC (adaptive cruise control) is managing to lower my speed or is about to stop my car due to traffic.

One neat trick is that to prevent the car from suddenly braking when you want to switch lanes is just to put your foot on the throttle so you override and prevent a risky braking situation.

[Blatto]

9 hours ago, DaveT70 said:

It's not suicidal at all, you're just not used to it.

It sets one, two or three car gap,

Seriously, you think a 1, 2 or 3 car length gap is safe at any speed?

Also the settings do no equate to car length gaps but to certain distances. All of these are way too close, apart from setting 4 which is roughly 2.2 seconds ( the bare minimum you should be).  

Take a look at this thread on the Topic 

 

If you are following a car at less than 70 Metres at 70 mph ( about 17 cars lengths for an average sized car) then you are following dangerously close, automatic braking systems or not.

Even at the setting 4 (2.2 seconds) you will also have a very restricted view of the road ahead making it very difficult to anticipate any potential hazards ahead.

 

[alexp999]

I’ll repeat what I said before, One thing I will say, is that the 2 second gap rule (in dry conditions), primarily is to factor in a humans reaction time. It takes on average 1.5 seconds for a human to react, the car can react in milliseconds. So in theory, if the system is operating correctly, if a car performs an emergency stop in front of you without warning, the car will react almost instantly (milliseconds) and still have 99% of the 1 second gap to try and stop, where a human could spend 1.5 seconds of the gap to react and only have 0.5 seconds worth of stopping distance - obviously plus the time it takes for the car in front to come to a stop too.

The problem with it, is that the people you are following, don't know you have computer controlled radar cruise (with "instant" reaction times) and so it will make them unhappy about how close you are (it certainly would me, no matter how new/expensive the car looked).

[sussamb]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 11:11 AM, DG97 said:

In fairness, you’ll need more time if you need to react as your foot isn’t actually on the throttle but resting somewhere so not as quick of a transition to start braking if needed. 

In fairness though, as a human driver, and assuming you're not one of the idiots that doesn't look further than his bonnet, you'll have already anticipated the driver in front braking/slowing and already reacted, no adaptive cruise control can do that

[Blatto]

7 minutes ago, sussamb said:

In fairness though, as a human driver, and assuming you're not one of the idiots that doesn't look further than his bonnet, you'll have already anticipated the driver in front braking/slowing and already reacted, no adaptive cruise control can do that

Well yes hopefully you would be reacting to it yourself, and as you touch the brake you cancel the  Adaptive Cruise control system which has now left you dangerously close with gaps  that are less than the thinking distance on most settings.

Another plus side to leaving larger gaps is it allows you to brake much more gently and progressively. If you've got some muppet that's following less than 2 seconds or so behind you, you can brake fairly gently and hopefully get his attention with your brake lights before you have to brake harder to avoid any incidents. If you are using settings 1, 2 or 3 of the Ford system and there is a very sudden stop ahead your car may very well stop quickly with it's automatic braking but the idiot behind you may not have that and will just pile into the back of you.

Nearly all the incidents I've seen on my daily trip up the A1M recently could have been avoided if people had left safe gaps. Sadly about 80% of the people I see every day are 2 or 3 car lengths apart at 70-80 mph. Madness. 

 

 

[DaveT70]

11 hours ago, Blatto said:

Seriously, you think a 1, 2 or 3 car length gap is safe at any speed?

Also the settings do no equate to car length gaps but to certain distances. All of these are way too close, apart from setting 4 which is roughly 2.2 seconds ( the bare minimum you should be).  

Take a look at this thread on the Topic 

 

If you are following a car at less than 70 Metres at 70 mph ( about 17 cars lengths for an average sized car) then you are following dangerously close, automatic braking systems or not.

Even at the setting 4 (2.2 seconds) you will also have a very restricted view of the road ahead making it very difficult to anticipate any potential hazards ahead.

 

Like I said, the car will brake before you've even thought about taking your foot off the throttle

[sussamb]

See Blatto's post above yours.  If you're too close and your car brakes suddenly then you're likely to be rear ended by the guy behind.  The fact is if you drive too close you're asking for trouble, and if you rely on adaptive cruise control you're a fool.  Trust me, I've been to too many accidents and picked up too many bodies to not underestimate the idiocy of those who drive too close to each other.

[Blatto]

14 hours ago, DaveT70 said:

Like I said, the car will brake before you've even thought about taking your foot off the throttle

I'm not doubting it will brake but they are not infallable and why would you possibly be endangering your life and that of others by following so closely? 

There's nothing to be gained from following too close, and everything to lose.

You lose/reduce  the ability to anticipate any incidents ahead

You lose any possibilty of stopping in time if something unexpected does happen.

You lose the abilty to have some control over the idiot behind you who is also following too close.

If you are doing it without any form of adaptive cruise control you will be forever on and off the brakes and accelerating,  wasting fuel and  causing unncessary wear and tear  on the transmission, brakes and tyres.

As a general rule of thumb in dry conditions with a car in good mechanical order and with good tyres, your speed in MPH = the minimum distance in metres you should be from the car in front e.g at 70mph, 70 metres is the minimum distance you need. For me that's still too close to feel safe and be able to drive with good anticipation of the road ahead. About 100 metres at 70mph is better. 

I just cannot understand why anyone would want to endanger theirs or other peoples lives, and even at a much lesser degree damage their pride and joy of a vehicle by following so closely.

Drink/drugged/sleep impaired driving, mobile phone use, excessive speed for the conditions and following too close, if the police would clamp down on those factors the roads would be a much safer and less congested place to be.

 

 

[DaveT70]

9 hours ago, Blatto said:

I'm not doubting it will brake but they are not infallable and why would you possibly be endangering your life and that of others by following so closely? 

There's nothing to be gained from following too close, and everything to lose.

You lose/reduce  the ability to anticipate any incidents ahead

You lose any possibilty of stopping in time if something unexpected does happen.

You lose the abilty to have some control over the idiot behind you who is also following too close.

If you are doing it without any form of adaptive cruise control you will be forever on and off the brakes and accelerating,  wasting fuel and  causing unncessary wear and tear  on the transmission, brakes and tyres.

As a general rule of thumb in dry conditions with a car in good mechanical order and with good tyres, your speed in MPH = the minimum distance in metres you should be from the car in front e.g at 70mph, 70 metres is the minimum distance you need. For me that's still too close to feel safe and be able to drive with good anticipation of the road ahead. About 100 metres at 70mph is better. 

I just cannot understand why anyone would want to endanger theirs or other peoples lives, and even at a much lesser degree damage their pride and joy of a vehicle by following so closely.

Drink/drugged/sleep impaired driving, mobile phone use, excessive speed for the conditions and following too close, if the police would clamp down on those factors the roads would be a much safer and less congested place to be.

 

 

Like I said, you're just not used to it, it works really well

[Guy Heaton]

Adaptive cruise is great but only reacts to the immediate.  It can't look 3 cars or a hundred yards ahead and start to prepare for what's happening. but that's what I do and want I want to teach my daughter.  Anticipation is a key skill that computers don't have.

[DG97]

I think people forget it’s a driving aid not replacement. 
 

I use adaptive cruise control and think it’s great. Makes any motorway journey far more pleasant and I wouldn’t spec a car without it from now. 
 

I think the 4 settings are safe, especially at setting 4 - the furthest away. 
 

If the car reacts immediately and someone rear ends you, that’s no different to you reacting and someone going into the back of you. It’s their fault for being too close to you. 
 

in terms of anticipation, you’re still in control of the vehicle - you’re simply using a driving aid. If things get dangerous or you see a hazard, turn it off. As simple as that. 

[sussamb]

1 hour ago, DaveT70 said:

Like I said, you're just not used to it, it works really well

You really are missing the point.  Even IF it works really well to prevent you hitting the car in front it won't stop the idiot behind who thinks it's 'safe' to follow at the same distance you are, so they slam into the back of you, nor does it allow for someone in the lane to your left/right to move into the gap if they need to because of an obstruction ahead of them.  On my blue light course one of the instructors used the mantra 'drive with space around you' as that gives you time (which equals distance) to react to whatever happens.  Nobody will convince me that adaptive cruise control does that, it's a blunt instrument that slows/slams on the anchors when it thinks there is an issue, a good driver will have already anticipated that and taken the action necessary before that point.  The only people to benefit from adaptive cruise control, self parking cars, lane drift warnings etc etc are those who simply don't know how to, or are incapable of, driving to a reasonable standard.

[DG97]

1 hour ago, sussamb said:

You really are missing the point.  Even IF it works really well to prevent you hitting the car in front it won't stop the idiot behind who thinks it's 'safe' to follow at the same distance you are, so they slam into the back of you, nor does it allow for someone in the lane to your left/right to move into the gap if they need to because of an obstruction ahead of them.  On my blue light course one of the instructors used the mantra 'drive with space around you' as that gives you time (which equals distance) to react to whatever happens.  Nobody will convince me that adaptive cruise control does that, it's a blunt instrument that slows/slams on the anchors when it thinks there is an issue, a good driver will have already anticipated that and taken the action necessary before that point.  The only people to benefit from adaptive cruise control, self parking cars, lane drift warnings etc etc are those who simply don't know how to, or are incapable of, driving to a reasonable standard.

I don’t think you have control over how close or far the far behind you is, regardless of if you use adaptive cruise control? If someone is on your rear end, regardless of adaptive cruise or normal driving, if their gap is too small, they’ll go into the back of you the moment you slam your breaks on. I don’t agree that adaptive cruise has a flaw with that argument personally. 

[DaveT70]

4 hours ago, sussamb said:

You really are missing the point.  Even IF it works really well to prevent you hitting the car in front it won't stop the idiot behind who thinks it's 'safe' to follow at the same distance you are, so they slam into the back of you, nor does it allow for someone in the lane to your left/right to move into the gap if they need to because of an obstruction ahead of them. 

You've changed the point now, you were complaining about the ACC gap to the car in front (which isn't an issue, you just don't understand how it works) now it's the car behind you without ACC (that's got nothing to do with the debate)

As for someone jumping into your gap, like I said earlier, the car will slow to his/her speed and reset the gap before you would've even thought about taking your foot off the throttle

[sussamb]

3 hours ago, DG97 said:

I don’t think you have control over how close or far the far behind you is, regardless of if you use adaptive cruise control? If someone is on your rear end, regardless of adaptive cruise or normal driving, if their gap is too small, they’ll go into the back of you the moment you slam your breaks on. I don’t agree that adaptive cruise has a flaw with that argument personally. 

The point is that if you're not relying on adaptive cruise control and therefore have a better gap you have more time to slow and therefore so does the guy behind you.  You can also allow for that idiot by increasing the gap, but your adaptive cruise control won't even have taken that into account.

Incidentally if you have to 'slam your brakes on' you're definitely not a skilled driver!

[sussamb]

12 minutes ago, DaveT70 said:

You've changed the point now, you were complaining about the ACC gap to the car in front (which isn't an issue, you just don't understand how it works) now it's the car behind you without ACC (that's got nothing to do with the debate)

As for someone jumping into your gap, like I said earlier, the car will slow to his/her speed and reset the gap before you would've even thought about taking your foot off the throttle

No, because I'd have anticipated it before and taken the appropriate action.  Your ACC will simply 'see' something now immediately in front and hit the brakes hard.

[DG97]

42 minutes ago, sussamb said:

The point is that if you're not relying on adaptive cruise control and therefore have a better gap you have more time to slow and therefore so does the guy behind you.  You can also allow for that idiot by increasing the gap, but your adaptive cruise control won't even have taken that into account.

Incidentally if you have to 'slam your brakes on' you're definitely not a skilled driver!

I’m not sure what you mean by “having a better gap” when you control the gap distance for adaptive cruise. The guy behind you sees your brake lights and then begins to slow - that’s no different between braking yourself or letting the adaptive cruise do it in my eyes. 
 

wouldn’t necessarily say having to slam your brakes on makes you unskilled unless that’s the only way you always brake in! Sadly a flaw of humans is that we make mistakes and sometimes you need to brake quickly

[sussamb]

Well braking quickly and slamming on your brakes are two entirely different things, but as for ACC guess we'll have to agree to disagree, good luck

[DaveT70]

ACC will not slam the brakes on because it knows how fast the vehicle who pulled in front of you is going.

It will only slam the brakes on if the car in front slams his brakes on,before you could even think about it, whilst maintaining the gap

If someone is behind you, too close, with no ACC and slams up your back end, that's their problem.