Latest EU emissions standards

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Happy New Year everyone! 

I noticed that the latest EU emissions rules take effect today. This is the one where new vehicles must emit, on average, no more than 95 grams of CO2 per 100km. For every gram of CO2 over this limit, the carmaker will incur a penalty of 95 euros per car.So, a fleet average of 98 grams on, say, 100,000 car sales, would mean a penalty of 28.5 million euros (3 x 95 x 100,000).

Apart from the likes of Tesla and firms heavily into hybrids, such as Toyota, most manufacturers have at least some high CO2 cars in their current ranges (I've seen estimates that the big German groups - VW, BMW, and Daimler - could end up with a bill of anything from 1 to 4 billion euros for 2020) so the only way they are going to avoid, or at least mitigate, the penalties is to sell a lot of electrified vehicles.

It strikes me that whatever happens, the customer is going to be paying a lot more for a car in the future. If, for the sake of argument (ignoring all the issues of range, charging time, etc) we all go electric then that's great for the carmaker but we'll be paying (at least in the short term) something like £19,000 for a city car like an Up!, or £30,000+ for a supermini/medium hatch. With a big take up, unit prices should start to fall in the longer term of course.

But if the carmakers/dealers can't persuade us to buy electric and are penalised by those fines, I guess they'll be looking to unload at least some of the "hit" onto customers, in the form of higher prices for i/c cars.

I wonder if a lot of cars with higher CO2 figures got "pre-registered" yesterday, to avoid being counted in this year's sales figures - may be some bargains about!

 

 

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Reading a bit more on this, it seems the 95gram/100km figure equates to 4.1 litres of petrol, or 3.6 litres of diesel, for every 100km travelled.

By my maths, that means averaging about 68mpg for a petrol car, or about 78mpg for a diesel, which is not very realistic. Looked at that way, you can see the size of the problem facing manufacturers and their pressing need to electrify vehicles, even if that ultimately turns out not to be the best alternative to fossil fuels.

[zain611]

This world isn't making it easier for us car guys. London mayor wants to expand the ULEZ charge to the whole city in 2021 which will affect the low class people such as myself who can't afford a compliant diesel. There's a scrappage scheme they are doing however the thing which excludes me is the fact that I need to be on some benefits scheme like child benefits, pension etc. Was thinking about registering my grandad on the car but it says the car has to be registered before October. 

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, zain611 said:

This world isn't making it easier for us car guys. 

Yes, I think we'll all be bus guys before too long. My nearest city council (York) has just announced a ban on all cars in the inner city area, however they're powered, within 3 years.

 

 

 

 

[dtulip8]

5 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Yes, I think we'll all be bus guys before too long. My nearest city council (York) has just announced a ban on all cars in the inner city area, however they're powered, within 3 years.

 

 

 

 

All that’ll do is kill off the city centre imo.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

40 minutes ago, dtulip8 said:

All that’ll do is kill off the city centre imo.

They've nearly done that already anyway with road closures, nowhere to park and sky high business rates!

[dtulip8]

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

They've nearly done that already anyway with road closures, nowhere to park and sky high business rates!

That’s very true, they’re all just the same shops! The centre of Leicester is a nightmare, and not really worth the effort in all honesty.

[TomsFocus]

17 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Yes, I think we'll all be bus guys before too long. 

[TomsFocus]

18 hours ago, zain611 said:

This world isn't making it easier for us car guys. 

Good...  Australia is literally on fire and their Prime Minister still isn't accepting climate change...  I wonder if he's still brandishing his piece of coal about... 🤔

The sad reality is that personal cars just aren't appropriate any more and the government do need to take action against them and force people into public transport.  They know everyone can't go electric but that's not the point, the point is to reduce cars overall.  We're not going to like it, but ultimately it is for a long term benefit. 

9 hours ago, dtulip8 said:

That’s very true, they’re all just the same shops! The centre of Leicester is a nightmare, and not really worth the effort in all honesty.

Do you still have shops in town?  It's all cafés, pubs or restaurants down here now...  The only shops are massive out of town stores that ironically need to be driven to and offer free parking...

[TimST2]

40 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The sad reality is that personal cars just aren't appropriate any more and the government do need to take action against them and force people into public transport.

I dont think the solution to stop people having personal transport and to force them on to public transport when much of the population dont live or work in places with good transport links.

For example, my nearest train station is 10 miles away, and the almost non-existent local bus service doesn't got to where either me or Mrs. TimST2 work. Developing clean transport, both public and personal, is the (combined) solution, and it is happening. In cities a lot of people already choose public transport because it's better. That's the right way for this to happen. Give people the choice between green options so they can choose the one that works for them.

[TomsFocus]

6 minutes ago, TimST2 said:

I dont think the solution to stop people having personal transport and to force them on to public transport when much of the population dont live or work in places with good transport links.

For example, my nearest train station is 10 miles away, and the almost non-existent local bus service doesn't got to where either me or Mrs. TimST2 work. Developing clean transport, both public and personal, is the (combined) solution, and it is happening. In cities a lot of people already choose public transport because it's better. That's the right way for this to happen. Give people the choice between green options so they can choose the one that works for them.

They need to be improving the public transport links so you can get to the train station or wherever you work on a clean (hybrid?) bus with several other people instead of taking ~15 cars to the same destination. 

Personally I can't use public transport at all, and my Nan lives in a rural village where she can't even walk to the bus stop so has to rely on other people driving for everything...  But as I say, this isn't about individuals, it's about the country as a whole and yes of course some people will suffer, as always happens with major progress.  There are too many cars on the road though, and too many people using them when they really don't need to.  Attitudes towards car use needs to change and we need to reduce the numbers of them on the road.  This isn't going to happen by choice, it's only going to happen by forcing large numbers of people and I'm afraid the best way to do that is financially.  

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

Do you still have shops in town?  It's all cafés, pubs or restaurants down here now...  The only shops are massive out of town stores that ironically need to be driven to and offer free parking...

Yes it's weird that that our anti car councils have permitted massive out of town shopping centres that can only realistically be accessed by car and have led to the actual city centres (which usually do have decent public transport access) becoming as Tom mentions above. I use public transport (or walk) whenever possible/practicable and can (and do) easily get into either of my nearest city centres (York and Leeds) using only one bus, but to access the out of town centres, where possible at all, means using two or three buses so realistically a car job in many cases.

Dragging myself back to the original topic, I was reading a test of the latest Corolla hybrid. This has a CO2 figure of 89g, well within the new 95g EU target and so you might expect an overall mpg in the high 60s based on the figures mentioned earlier, but the average for the test was just over 44. Hmmmm..............😞

[dtulip8]

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Do you still have shops in town?  It's all cafés, pubs or restaurants down here now...  The only shops are massive out of town stores that ironically need to be driven to and offer free parking...

Just a few, but none really that I wouldn’t be able to go somewhere else to find. Bedsides that then it is just food places.

[TomsFocus]

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Dragging myself back to the original topic, I was reading a test of the latest Corolla hybrid. This has a CO2 figure of 89g, well within the new 95g EU target and so you might expect an overall mpg in the high 60s based on the figures mentioned earlier, but the average for the test was just over 44. Hmmmm..............😞

The Corrolla is self charging I think?  So not as efficient as a plug-in around town.  44mpg seems awful though, I had an '02 1.8 petrol Avensis that wasn't far off that!  I know cars are heavier now with all the mod cons but even so I'd be expecting ~55mpg.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

The Corrolla is self charging I think?  

👍 it is. My point was that something that on paper easily exceeds the latest EU standard is, in reality, no more economical than a lot of cars that don't. Though in fairness when it's running in electric mode at least it's not chucking out particulates, etc.! 

 

 

 

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

On 1/1/2020 at 4:58 PM, Eric Bloodaxe said:

But if the carmakers/dealers can't persuade us to buy electric and are penalised by those fines, I guess they'll be looking to unload at least some of the "hit" onto customers, in the form of higher prices for i/c cars.

It looks as if that is going to happen. The VW Up! Gti, which has been off sale for a while, is now back in the price list. Autocar calculated that this would be liable for a penalty of around £1,900 under the new rules and the car is now listed at about £2,000 more than when it was last on sale.

[TomsFocus]

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

It looks as if that is going to happen. The VW Up! Gti, which has been off sale for a while, is now back in the price list. Autocar calculated that this would be liable for a penalty of around £1,900 under the new rules and the car is now listed at about £2,000 more than when it was last on sale.

£16k for a rollerskate!! 😮 Also only 113bhp from a 1.0 turbo which seems pretty poor...  I'd rather go for the Swift Sport tbh...though I won't be surprised if that's £20k under the new regs!  

[Eric Bloodaxe]

On 1/10/2020 at 12:36 PM, TomsFocus said:

rather go for the Swift Sport tbh...though I won't be surprised if that's £20k under the new regs!  

Lol it's currently on the Suzuki site at £17, 249 but that includes a £2,000 "customer saving" so the normal list isn't far off £20k already. I think we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing - it's very difficult to get a small car under the new limits as there's no room for the sort of technology you can fit in larger models (mild hybrid etc) plus customers expect small cars to be cheaper. We'll see how many takers VW get at that price. It might have boosted second hand prices on the ones already sold, though!

Don't know if you've driven one, but I found the Up! GTI great fun to drive. Tbh I don't think you can read too much into the 113bhp as the VW version of a 1.0 is tuned to produce more torque lower down so can feel stronger than the Ford version. There's very little difference in the quoted performance figures of an Ibiza FR 115 and a 140 Fiesta, for example.

[TomsFocus]

31 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Lol it's currently on the Suzuki site at £17, 249 but that includes a £2,000 "customer saving" so the normal list isn't far off £20k already. I think we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing - it's very difficult to get a small car under the new limits as there's no room for the sort of technology you can fit in larger models (smart hybrid etc) plus customers expect small cars to be cheaper. We'll see how many takers VW get at that price. It might have boosted second hand prices on the ones already sold, though!

Don't know if you've driven one, but I found the Up! GTI great fun to drive. Tbh I don't think you can read too much into the 113bhp as the VW version of a 1.0 is tuned to produce more torque lower down so can feel stronger than the Ford version. There's very little difference in the quoted performance figures of an Ibiza FR 115 and a 140 Fiesta, for example.

No, I haven't driven one tbf, just decided I didn't like them without!!

I have driven standard Swift's, C1's and 107s though and can't cope with the ride on any of them so seriously doubt the Up! would be suitable for me.

It might have enough torque for daily driving but I'm afraid 113bhp just doesn't sound GTi enough...I'd always feel a bit ashamed to tell anyone my GTi only has 113bhp personally!  

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

..I'd always feel a bit ashamed to tell anyone my GTi only has 113bhp personally!  

 

Just shows how things move on. Back in 1976 I wouldn't have been in the least ashamed to admit my Golf GTI only had 110ps - if I could have afforded one then!😀 

It's amazing the effect that increasing weight can have. Back in the late 80's/early 90's I had an Astra 1.8SRi with 112ps. I keep thinking it was quicker than the Fiesta I have at present, which has 140ps and a bit more torque, but put it down to nostalgia etc. But I came across a road test from 1986 and found I was right - by every measure except a couple of mph on top speed the Astra was quicker, down to a combination of a lot less weight and much lower gearing. I used to average 38mpg in that compared to 45 with the Fiesta, so that's progress I suppose.

 

[TomsFocus]

5 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Just shows how things move on. Back in 1976 I wouldn't have been in the least ashamed to admit my Golf GTI only had 110ps - if I could have afforded one then!😀 

It's amazing the effect that increasing weight can have. Back in the late 80's/early 90's I had an Astra 1.8SRi with 112ps. I keep thinking it was quicker than the Fiesta I have at present, which has 140ps and a bit more torque, but put it down to nostalgia etc. But I came across a road test from 1986 and found I was right - by every measure except a couple of mph on top speed the Astra was quicker, down to a combination of a lot less weight and much lower gearing. I used to average 38mpg in that compared to 45 with the Fiesta, so that's progress I suppose.

 

Even by '99 the 2.0 GTi 110 in the Mk4 Golf was inadequate! 

Especially when you could buy a 306 GTi6 with 167bhp at the same time...better spec and handling too...  

Good job they brought out the 1.8t!

Time definitely does move on...I'd want at least 130bhp in the Up! to call it a GTi myself.

I must admit though, I had a 1.8 petrol 306 back in 2010...only 112bhp (considerably less than the GTi6!) but it was a much nicer engine, lighter, quicker revving, and nippier around town too, it was only really motorways where the '6 had extra legs...although the '6 did have a much nicer exhaust note, the 1.8 had a better induction noise so swings and roundabouts.  The turning circle was also ridiculous on the '6 because of the 6sp gearbox getting in the way so the 1.8 wins there lol.  Seem to remember it averaged about 37mpg too...so not much better than your Astra with 10 years of tech lol.