Concerns over automatic problems

[Thoric]

I'm in the market for a Focus, and having left knee problems (at only 41!) I'm thinking I'd prefer an automatic now.

I've been reading with surprise and horror about the long string of problems Ford have had with their automatics, both the single clutch and the powershift dual clutch types.

My wife has the B-Max automatic (single clutch I believe) and it's awful. Juddering is the main complaint, after warm up. The car's just over 5 years old (we got it last year) so I think it's beyond the extended gearbox warranty that Ford offer now.

The DCT (Powershift) has apparently always had problems, and there are lawsuits around the world relating to it. I read that Ford "stopped manufacturing the gearbox" in 2017. Does this mean something new came out in 2017? Something now reliable?

I'm a Ford fan, always liked them, but this has me seriously wondering if I ought to look at the VW DSG if I need an automatic, the performance and reliability reports are excellent.

I'd very much like to hear everyone's opinions please. I think I need to hear something reassuring if I'm going to consider a Ford automatic.

[Alex.S]

I’d heard of the notorious powershift ford gearbox. I think they sorted it for later models. My mk4 is a completely different box . 8 speed, I think it’s a torque converter 🤔 

the 8 speed auto came out 2018 as far as I know.

I've driven a lot of automatics but this is first one I’ve owned, really like it. Sport mode is great too. 

 

[Jonro2009]

I had a 2017 1.5tdi powershift and it never missed a beat. No juddering or hunting for gears, smooth and responsive. The only issue I had is that because it is a 'wet' clutch it requires regular expensive servicing. The intervals are 3yrs\36k miles, at a cost of as round £300.

The VAG auto is very nice, smooth as silk but not without its own problems, particularly in the 1.5 diesel engine. Has been juddery and hunting for gears, however many owners have said it's down to drivers just not being used to how autos behave. They also seem to 'lunge' forward or backwards quite quickly when you release the break, my wife found that put her off the auto.

At 37 I need an auto following spinal fractures, so I now drive an auto A class, and if I'm honest I prefer the powershift.

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[Thoric]

44 minutes ago, Alex.S said:

I’d heard of the notorious powershift ford gearbox. I think they sorted it for later models. My mk4 is a completely different box . 8 speed, I think it’s a torque converter 🤔 

the 8 speed auto came out 2018 as far as I know.

I've driven a lot of automatics but this is first one I’ve owned, really like it. Sport mode is great too. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_transmissions

This wiki shows all the ford automatic gearboxes. The dual clutch section is fairly short, and assuming it's up to date info, there hasn't been a new dual gearbox released anytime recently, except for the Mustang.

But there is a new 8 speed single clutch gearbox. Could it be that one?

[Alex.S]

50 minutes ago, Thoric said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_transmissions

This wiki shows all the ford automatic gearboxes. The dual clutch section is fairly short, and assuming it's up to date info, there hasn't been a new dual gearbox released anytime recently, except for the Mustang.

But there is a new 8 speed single clutch gearbox. Could it be that one?

I’m no good with technical stuff but I’m pretty sure the powershift is a dual clutch and for the new 8 speed that all mk4 focus autos have they’ve gone back to a traditional torque converter. 

Whatever they’ve done I have no complaints 

I’ve heard it’s good in the 1L too. I have a petrol 1.5L 

Answer to your question..yes I believe that’s what they’re talking about. 

[Thoric]

I’m no good with technical stuff but I’m pretty sure the powershift is a dual clutch and for the new 8 speed that all mk4 focus autos have they’ve gone back to a traditional torque converter. 
Whatever they’ve done I have no complaints 
I’ve heard it’s good in the 1L too. I have a petrol 1.5L 
Answer to your question..yes I believe that’s what they’re talking about. 

I've tried looking into this further, out of interest, and it looks very promising. I wasn't in the market for anything quite so new (because of price) but I think if it's a Ford I buy it'll have to be this new transmission or nothing at all. Mainly for the reliability, but also I see improved fuel efficiency is a bonus.

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[karlbbb]

You can go a little older - the automatic gearbox on the Mk3.5 (2015-2018) petrol engines is a 6-speed torque convertor so isn’t plagued by the clutch issues.

[Alex.S]

13 hours ago, Thoric said:

also I see improved fuel efficiency is a bonus

I can’t comment on diesels or 1 litre engine but my 182 does 28mpg! Thankfully it’s much better on the motorway . 

If you manage to find an early mk4 1.5l in your price range, if it’s built before May 2019 it’ll have multi link suspension, mines a later one , got twist beam which I can’t fault but I never got to drive an earlier build. 

[Thoric]

So here's a challenge, what gearbox has this Focus got?
https://www.evanshalshaw.com/search/vehicledetails/used-car-ford-focus--automatic-petrol-red-estate-sg67yvv/

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[Eric Bloodaxe]

55 minutes ago, Thoric said:

So here's a challenge, what gearbox has this Focus got?

From the toggle switch on the gear knob, I would guess Powershift?

[Jonro2009]

On my 2017 powershift there was no buttons on the side of the gear lever, I did have paddles on the steering wheels though, maybe if you had the paddles you don't get buttons [emoji2369]

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[Jonro2009]

So here's a challenge, what gearbox has this Focus got?
https://www.evanshalshaw.com/search/vehicledetails/used-car-ford-focus--automatic-petrol-red-estate-sg67yvv/

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This post has piqued my interest, although I don't own a powershift vehicle anymore I like to learn things. So tonight I've done some reading up about the problems that plagued the PS box and how Ford claimed it was normal. It seems that some problems where indeed real, but some where purely down to the customer.
A PS is never going to be as smooth and behave the same as a box with hydraulic parts, there will be times when it's changes are rough and when it momentarily hunts for a gear if you quickly change your driving style.
I didn't have any of these problems and I wondered why, well it seems that after 2016 Ford got things right with the box, I'm not entirely convinced that's true. There are reports of 2017 vehicles being 'shoddy' too, it seems the American market was the focus (excuse the pun) of the issues so perhaps the 2016 fix was in the US and the EU cars a little later [emoji2369]
I'm no mechanical whiz but I've understood what I have read, especially the parts where Ford knew about the issues before the PS went on the market and told dealers to tow the party line that it was 'normal'. Sounds like a Ford thing to do.
Anyway, if I'm right it seems that the problems only extend to the dry clutch boxes and not the wet clutch variants. Wet clutch design was used in the diesels (like mine) and the higher torque vehicles.
So if you can justify a diesel then it might be a good option, due to the government plan to phase them out they are some pretty good deals about now. Just remember the wet clutch requires servicing but the dry clutch is a sealed unit.

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[Alex.S]

I’d read Ford had rectified the problem, and I test drove a mk3.5 auto Focus a while back which was alright but If Ford hadn’t introduced the new 8 speed auto box I wouldn’t have bought a Ford. 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

43 minutes ago, Jonro2009 said:

On my 2017 powershift there was no buttons on the side of the gear lever, I did have paddles on the steering wheels though, maybe if you had the paddles you don't get buttons
 

The owners handbook online mentions the gear knob button or paddles, but doesn't say what cars got which. It's one or the other.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

28 minutes ago, Jonro2009 said:

Anyway, if I'm right it seems that the problems only extend to the dry clutch boxes and not the wet clutch variants.

Yes, as a former owner of several VW Group Cars I've done a fair amount of lurking on the relevant forums and it seems most of the issues with VW's DSG boxes have concerned the dry clutch variety. They also use wet clutch for higher torque applications which seem less problematic.

[Jonro2009]

Yes, as a former owner of several VW Group Cars I've done a fair amount of lurking on the relevant forums and it seems most of the issues with VW's DSG boxes have concerned the dry clutch variety. They also use wet clutch for higher torque applications which seem less problematic.

Good to know I've been reading the right stuff then lol.
My dad has a 1.5petrol Karoq with an auto box and a lot of people complain about them, normally first time users of an auto box though. He loves it, swears by VAG auto boxes.



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[DaveT70]

22 hours ago, karlbbb said:

You can go a little older - the automatic gearbox on the Mk3.5 (2015-2018) petrol engines is a 6-speed torque convertor so isn’t plagued by the clutch issues.

6f15 and 6f30 came in at 2017 onwards

[Thoric]

Some really great conversation here, thanks chaps! So it seems the dry clutch models are likely problematic, for both Ford and VAG, and best avoided. And Ford apparently replaced the PS with the better wet model for the US before the UK, without definitive dates to refer to.

My issue still stands then, how do I definitely determine which gearbox type is fitted to any particular Focus? New or old, Powershift or newer type, dry or wet?

I'm looking at various Focus models, including the lower torque 1.0 Ecoboost, so definitely want to avoid being lumbered with a bad gearbox.

Any advice on definitively determining the installed gearbox would be much appreciated. I don't know if this info is available from Ford themselves? Or is there a really easy way to self determine, from inspection or 'feel' during a test drive?

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[Eric Bloodaxe]

It does seem to be a bit of a minefield. Quite a lot of history/information here, which you may have seen already:

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/ford/focus-2014/history/

I'm not personally a great automatic fan, but may eventually have to bite the bullet for similar reasons to @Thoric (knackered left foot in my case) though I'm a fair bit older!😀 So always interested in these sort of discussions. 

[ShamusUK]

2.0 diesels came with wet clutch Powershift - robust and reliable (for this type of gearbox). In fact this Peugeot engine is also said to be reliable. Not a bad combination. Gearbox oil changes are required to keep things reliable and smooth. Every 35k i believe, at around £300.

1.5 petrol from very late 2016 onwards came with Torque Converter automatic - ultra reliable, but thirsty (due to being 6 speed and a torque converter). This is the safest combination, if you can tolerate 25-30mpg. I have this engine and gearbox. It's brilliant.

Everything else on mk3 and mk3.5 was dry clutch Powershift - reliability and smoothness improved as the years went by - and reports of big bills become more rare. Early ones are best avoided, although many would have had clutch packs replaced under warranty, and software updates applied (2014-2016 seems to be low risk, especially with <30k on the clock).

Everything on mk4 is torque converter 8 speed.

The above is what I learned when looking for my Focus last year. After having a DSG Passat in the past, I did not want a Powershift - although the (dry clutch) DSG problems seem far more prevalent and catastrophic and expensive, compared to (dry clutch) Powershift.

I would never touch another VW Group DSG or S-Tronic car again (unreliable, jerky and dangerous hesitation/lag). I would take a chance on a 2.0 Diesel Powershift though (wet clutch), as fitted to a heavy 2016 Kuga for example, where the car is more suited to a Diesel, and economy would just be too bad with the old 6 speed torque converter.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jonro2009]

@ShamusUK my 1.5d focus 2017 had a wet clutch PS

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[ShamusUK]

3 minutes ago, Jonro2009 said:

@ShamusUK my 1.5d focus 2017 had a wet clutch PS

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Oops, I forgot about the later 1.5 diesels.

So 1.0 Petrol and 1.6 Petrol and Diesel were the problematic dry clutch, which improved over the years.

Is the 1.5d wet clutch Powershift a good one?

 

[TimJ]

13 hours ago, Thoric said:

So here's a challenge, what gearbox has this Focus got?
https://www.evanshalshaw.com/search/vehicledetails/used-car-ford-focus--automatic-petrol-red-estate-sg67yvv/

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Its Powershift (has the + / - buttons on the right of the knob).  Also being petrol it will be the Dry Clutch Powershift (same as mine).  If you're interested it, have a thorough test drive.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, ShamusUK said:

I would never touch another VW Group DSG or S-Tronic car again (unreliable, jerky and dangerous hesitation/lag). 

I've not had the pleasure (?) of driving a Ford powershift but have driven several VW Group DSGs and that was my main criticism - very slow off the mark, particularly with the start/stop operational. It may be a matter of getting used to it (though your experience suggests otherwise).

To put the other side of the coin, however, a friend has had an Audi A1 (so 7 speed "dry" DSG) for 7 years with no bother and she loves the box. Her hubby (who ran his own service/mot business for many years) also rates it highly.

If looking at VW Group Cars now, it's becoming hard to find one without  DSG these days, manuals are simply not available on many of the petrols, and most of the nearly new used cars seem to have had it fitted as an option where not standard. (I was looking in an Audi dealership yesterday and there wasn't a manual to be seen in the showroom or the used car display!)

[ShamusUK]

25 minutes ago, TimJ said:

Its Powershift (has the + / - buttons on the right of the knob).

 

I agree this is the Powershift gearbox.

However, my car is a Torque Converter type and has exactly the same gear lever, with the +/- buttons on the right. Same markings as well (P R N D S). If you use the +/- buttons, the driver display tells you what gear you are in (1-6). Does the Powershift do the same? Maybe that would provide a visual clue as to gearbox type?