AUTOMATIC gearbox or POWERSHIFT, you should understand the difference before buying.

[Dave May]

My reliable 2004 Mondeo Estate Auto gearbox has done 190,000 miles and never had an oil change or

problems and I tow a 1.5 ton boat.

This type of gearbox has a fluid coupling ( torque converter) which is a genuine auto with no clutch

to wear out. 

Later Fords and many other car makers use a POWERSHIFT gearbox which is NOT an automatic, it

is a MANUAL gearbox with TWO CLUTCHES  which have plenty of expensive problems. Type on

google POWERSHIFT  PROBLEMS you will see many reports.

This gearbox has to have expensive oil changes every 35,000 miles and if you tow a caravan or boat the DUAL CLUTCH will not last long, as the TORQUE CONVERTER is missing.

Hopefully Ford will ditch Powershift in 2020 and sell genuine autos with TORQUE CONVERTERS.

I will be keeping my old reliable Mondeo until Fords gets back to normal.

Thought you should all know the difference before buying.

Regards 

Dave

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Dave May
Too many spaces in text and paragraphsa

[rbitton782]

GW
Since 2016 ford Europe uses auto gear box only(and manual)

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Dave May]

I notice you have a 2012 s max, is this a POWERSHIFT gearbox.

Have you read the bad reports on this type of gearbox and did you change the

gearbox oil at the specified mileage ( if you do have powershift ).

[rbitton782]

I notice you have a 2012 s max, is this a POWERSHIFT gearbox.
Have you read the bad reports on this type of gearbox and did you change the
gearbox oil at the specified mileage ( if you do have powershift ).

GW
Yep, you're right about that.
I wished I could have the ZF gearbox.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Dave May]

For everyone out there the ZF gearbox is the best automatic you can buy, it

is complete with a torque converter.  Hopefully soon to be fitted in a Mondeo.

[Jonro2009]

The auto box in the petrol variants is a torque converter though - a sealed unit with no expensive servicing.

 

I had the PS in my Focus, while I felt it was a very smooth and well balanced part I wasn't aware of the running costs, which lead me to change. This information is definitely worth knowing, I wish I had researched it first.  

 

Thanks for posting @Dave May

[isetta]

I am well aware of the power shift problems from reading forums etc. The upside of power shift is better fuel economy than torque converters but that’s not much consolation if the car is bust. I wouldn’t risk my money on one.

[Dave May]

POWERSHIFT was originally designed for Formula 1 racing cars for very fast gear changes but you don't get traffic jams on a racecourse. Try being in a 2 hour traffic jam on the M5 on the way to Devon, the creeping stop and starts are not good for PS as the clutch is constantly slipping and overheating, you will need A/C permently on to stay cool in the car. Pulling a boat up a steep ramp will definitely overheat the clutches and you could get a large repair bill. Best to join the AA, they will get you home.

 

[TrevorB]

Powershift is just a description, not a brand name. Ford Powershift units are manufactured by Getrag and there is more than one type.

Volks/Audi dual clutch units are manufactured by Borg Warner

Just to clarify re the Getrag Powershift, the vast majority of problems relates to the Getrag Powershift DCT250 which has "Dry" clutches and was fitted to Ford, Renault and Citroens with the lower powered engine units in – these have well known problem that have been kicking about for years.

This DCT250 is the trans that was fitted to Ford Fiesta that the USA market purchased 1,000s off, hence the problem being mainly in the states as uk and Europe  usually buy manual trans for their small cars.

The unaffected Getrag Powershift DCT450 which has "Wet" clutches is fitted to numerous Volvo models and higher powered Fords such as the Mk4 Mondeo (petrol and Diesel, excluding 2.2 diesel), the Mk5 Mondeo diesel, S Max diesel and Focus ST diesel.

On certain current Ford models it is now also available in 8 speed spec

The DCT450 clutches are not slipping/burning when the the veh is stationary/speedo at zero as the trans has a unique feature of releasing any pressure/load onto the clutches in those circumstances.

As long as the DCT450 trans oil and filter are changed every 37, 500 miles or 3 years, whichever occurs first, it is pretty reliable.

Dave, you don’t have to wait until 2020 – The Mk5 Mondeo Petrol models have had  “normal” torque converter type trans since introduction in 2014.

It is called the 6F35 Mid Range designed by Ford USA and GM (General Motors) in a joint venture quite a few years ago. Each now manufacture their own now “in house”

It is a 6 speed trans but has been available in the American Ford Fusion in 8 speed format for quite some time. It is now also available as 8 speed in the Mondeo Mk5 peterol models.

2015 onward Ford Diesels still use the Getrag Powershift and some current models are 8 speed.

Ford may have stayed with the DCT450 Powershift on diesel models as it takes more max torque than the 6F35, which leaves the 6F35 a bit “close to the mark” if it was fitted to a current twin turbo 2 litre diesel (This is only my opinion, not a published fact)

Also Focus Mk3.5 (approx 2016 onwards) use a “normal” type torque converter trans designated the 6F15

The new Focus Mk4 Auto again uses a “normal” type torque converter trans designated the 8F24, and it is an 8 speed trans.

I do agree the ZF 8 speed is a great transmission and used in vehs such as BMW and Jaguar.

As Ford have manufactured/supplied their own in house torque converter type trans since at least 2014 you will not see the ZF 8 speed in a Ford.

If Powershift was originally designed just for Formula one, then so must the DSG unit made by Borg Warner have been!

The Mk4 Mondeo petrol and diesel use the DCT450 except for the 2.2 Diesel which uses a “normal” type torque converter trans

[Dave May]

Cheers Trev, this information is priceless, thanks for taking the time to post it, you seem to be very clued up on the subject.

Jono2009 said the petrol Mondeo autos are torque converters, I admit I wasn't aware of this. I have always preferred a diesel and was hoping to just have the same TDCI but new 2020 version, but might check out the petrol model as Euro 6 emission standard may be better for London driving.

If Ford had fitted letters DCT on the back of cars instead of POWERSHIFT customers would have asked what is was and realised it was not an automatic after being told it was Dual Clutch Transmission. POWERSHIFT seems to indicate automatic, a typical sales ploy. That's why I included POWERSHIFT when writing this post, it gets attention.

Even though the PS has pressure release on the clutches when car is stationary in traffic, when creeping along slowly and stopping and starting the clutch is still operating and getting hot and shortening its life, torque converter has none of these problems.

[TrevorB]

Hi Dave, glad the info was helpful.

Yes, the diesels are still powershift. Only petrols are the normal torque converter type and of course late petrol Mondeo is 1,500 cc Ecoboost as the 2 litre ecoboost does not meet current emissions. If you can afford a current production petrol 1,500 cc Mondeo it will be 8 speed

That's how I come to leave Fords and Mondeo's, apart from loads of earlier Fords I have had 4 new Focus ST225s, a Mondeo Mk4.5 2 litre ecoboost Sport (Powershift standard) and a fully kitted Mk5 Mondeo 2 litre ecoboost with the torque converter 6F35 Trans.

There was nothing to follow on from there for me as I was expecting an uprated 2 litre ecoboost with 8 speed trans and it has not happened, so at the moment I am running a 2019 3 series 2 litre petrol F30 BMW 320 M Sport with the 8 speed ZF (3 months old, 3,000 miles, a no brainer, it was cheaper than the same age and mileage Focus Mk4 1 litre auto).

I don't think saying powershift was a sales ploy - how can you say it is not an Automatic - it does not have a clutch pedal and when you put the lever in "D" you just drive the car like any other auto, but, hey ho. All the best

[Dave May]

OK Trev I will take back sales ploy and admin it has an automatic CLUTCH.

All I am trying to do is let car buyers know what they are getting when they purchase an automatic car. They can google POWERSHIFT PROBLEMS and get to know the disadvantages of the automatic clutch and why torque converter is the best.

I sure you will have no problems with your BMW ZF gearbox.

Best Regards

Dave

[TrevorB]

Each to their own I guess. As a "drivers car" I would prefer to have the Getrag Powershift than a torque converter type transmission, but, we are all different.

Tongue in cheek now, but when you say "powershift trans are problems" how does one evaluate that??!!!!

If we say the ZF trans is a super trans and has no problems why are there hundreds of ZF Trans specialists all over the country able to and doing repairs - does this mean the ZF is a problem trans?

If we say the Powershift Getrag is a terrible problematic Trans why is it that there are virtually no specialists all over the country offering any repairs/reconditioning - does this mean the powershift is not a problem?

As we all know, we can do do anything with statistics

When people google "powershift problems" they also need to be aware of which specification trans they are looking at.

 

[FatHead1979]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:03 PM, TrevorB said:

Each to their own I guess. As a "drivers car" I would prefer to have the Getrag Powershift than a torque converter type transmission, but, we are all different.

Tongue in cheek now, but when you say "powershift trans are problems" how does one evaluate that??!!!!

If we say the ZF trans is a super trans and has no problems why are there hundreds of ZF Trans specialists all over the country able to and doing repairs - does this mean the ZF is a problem trans?

If we say the Powershift Getrag is a terrible problematic Trans why is it that there are virtually no specialists all over the country offering any repairs/reconditioning - does this mean the powershift is not a problem?

As we all know, we can do do anything with statistics

When people google "powershift problems" they also need to be aware of which specification trans they are looking at.

 

Coupled with the unknown variables such as the types of journey any given car does AND how they are driven.

 

From what I've seen on here and TalkFord etc, the DCT-450 seems to be pretty solid as long as it's been serviced as per the recommended intervals.  As you mention, torque converter boxes aren't without there own downsides such as reduced acceleration due to the fluid connection and reduced duel economy.

 

That said, given the choice between a DCT-250 and a traditional torque converter box I'd take the traditional box all day long.

[Dave May]

Saturday 11th July 2020. Ford can now supply a 2.0 Litre Diesel Ecoblue engine FOR A MONDEO. This ecoblue engine has been used in transit vans for  few years but now has emissions low enough for Euro6 so can be driven into London. Ecoblue is a brilliant idea to reduce emissions by use of a separate water tank with an additive that sprays into the exhaust to clear the black dust and reduce n-oxide levels. The additive is low cost and this water tank should last a few thousand miles before needing refilling. 

Ford salesmen do not seem to understand what a TORQUE CONVERTER automatic gearbox is. They know now and are due to inform me if there is any chance of this type of auto that can again be fitted in a Mondeo. This gearbox would be better for customers who tow caravans & boats and for other customers who don’t like to pay vast sums for repair of the PowerShift gearboxes. On Utube there are good videos explaining how Torque Converters work. I think TC’s are a brilliant invention and worth loosing a few MPG.

[richardc1983]

Never knew this 

[richardc1983]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:42 AM, TrevorB said:

Powershift is just a description, not a brand name. Ford Powershift units are manufactured by Getrag and there is more than one type.

Volks/Audi dual clutch units are manufactured by Borg Warner

Just to clarify re the Getrag Powershift, the vast majority of problems relates to the Getrag Powershift DCT250 which has "Dry" clutches and was fitted to Ford, Renault and Citroens with the lower powered engine units in – these have well known problem that have been kicking about for years.

This DCT250 is the trans that was fitted to Ford Fiesta that the USA market purchased 1,000s off, hence the problem being mainly in the states as uk and Europe  usually buy manual trans for their small cars.

The unaffected Getrag Powershift DCT450 which has "Wet" clutches is fitted to numerous Volvo models and higher powered Fords such as the Mk4 Mondeo (petrol and Diesel, excluding 2.2 diesel), the Mk5 Mondeo diesel, S Max diesel and Focus ST diesel.

On certain current Ford models it is now also available in 8 speed spec

The DCT450 clutches are not slipping/burning when the the veh is stationary/speedo at zero as the trans has a unique feature of releasing any pressure/load onto the clutches in those circumstances.

As long as the DCT450 trans oil and filter are changed every 37, 500 miles or 3 years, whichever occurs first, it is pretty reliable.

Dave, you don’t have to wait until 2020 – The Mk5 Mondeo Petrol models have had  “normal” torque converter type trans since introduction in 2014.

It is called the 6F35 Mid Range designed by Ford USA and GM (General Motors) in a joint venture quite a few years ago. Each now manufacture their own now “in house”

It is a 6 speed trans but has been available in the American Ford Fusion in 8 speed format for quite some time. It is now also available as 8 speed in the Mondeo Mk5 peterol models.

2015 onward Ford Diesels still use the Getrag Powershift and some current models are 8 speed.

Ford may have stayed with the DCT450 Powershift on diesel models as it takes more max torque than the 6F35, which leaves the 6F35 a bit “close to the mark” if it was fitted to a current twin turbo 2 litre diesel (This is only my opinion, not a published fact)

Also Focus Mk3.5 (approx 2016 onwards) use a “normal” type torque converter trans designated the 6F15

The new Focus Mk4 Auto again uses a “normal” type torque converter trans designated the 8F24, and it is an 8 speed trans.

I do agree the ZF 8 speed is a great transmission and used in vehs such as BMW and Jaguar.

As Ford have manufactured/supplied their own in house torque converter type trans since at least 2014 you will not see the ZF 8 speed in a Ford.

If Powershift was originally designed just for Formula one, then so must the DSG unit made by Borg Warner have been!

The Mk4 Mondeo petrol and diesel use the DCT450 except for the 2.2 Diesel which uses a “normal” type torque converter trans

Thanks for the useful info, what will my March 2018 Focus 3.5 ST3 auto have fitted? It's  diesel and ford etis says it's the powershift one? Do I have to do this ridiculous service every 35k or 3 years? Just bought this car and pick up Tuesday from Ford it's got 15k on the clock. 

[Guy Heaton]

I wouldn't describe a service as ridiculous.  In the US where autos are common it's the normal thing to regularly service them.

DCT boxes are really very different from old style torque converter boxes and need their fluid and clutch packs replacing at certain times.  Do this and they should last a long time.  The problems with the early VW dsg boxes were  often because people skimped on servicing them.

With tc boxes yes you can get away with not changing the fliud for ages but I had a c class Merc which was meant to get a fluid change at 35k.  Gearbox seemed fine but I had no evidence of a change so at 70k I had one done.  It made the changes quicker and lower in the range and was worth it.

[Dave May]

I am not 100% sure but I believe some Focus cars are back to torque converter and also

the American Fiesta could be torque converter now.

[richardc1983]

On 7/12/2020 at 8:48 AM, Guy Heaton said:

I wouldn't describe a service as ridiculous.  In the US where autos are common it's the normal thing to regularly service them.

DCT boxes are really very different from old style torque converter boxes and need their fluid and clutch packs replacing at certain times.  Do this and they should last a long time.  The problems with the early VW dsg boxes were  often because people skimped on servicing them.

With tc boxes yes you can get away with not changing the fliud for ages but I had a c class Merc which was meant to get a fluid change at 35k.  Gearbox seemed fine but I had no evidence of a change so at 70k I had one done.  It made the changes quicker and lower in the range and was worth it.

Good information, I will of course get this done then I just wish Ford had mentioned this to me without me having to dig deep to find out. 

[TrevorB]

Dave, you say you are not sure re some Focus trans? - The answer is in my above post 30 April 2020

Richard - I deffo don't see it as being ridiculous - it is a manufacturers requirement for that transmission (Getrag Powershift)

Yes, as you have a diesel it will be the Getrag Powershift 6DCT450 

 

Guy, the DCT in the VW is made by Borg Warner so their probs do not mirror Getrag probs and vice versa

[TrevorB]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:31 PM, Dave May said:

Ford salesmen do not seem to understand what a TORQUE CONVERTER automatic gearbox is. They know now and are due to inform me if there is any chance of this type of auto that can again be fitted in a Mondeo. This gearbox would be better for customers who tow caravans & boats and for other customers who don’t like to pay vast sums for repair of the PowerShift gearboxes. On Utube there are good videos explaining how Torque Converters work. I think TC’s are a brilliant invention and worth loosing a few MPG.

Dave, I guess you have an axe to grind re Ford Salesmen and the Getrag Powershift - you can have your own opinion, as I couldn't care less what you, and any other people think about either, BUT, it is FACTS that should be stated, not opinions that could mislead people that don't know the truth.

I use two Ford dealers and I can assure you that the salesmen I know are fully aware of the different types of trans re DCT or Torque converter type.

The info you give on the Mondeo is also not 100% clear regarding Mondeo auto types - The Mondeo is not available at present with T Converter type trans as supply is only diesel

However, as I stated in my post 30 April there are MK 5 Mondeo models available with torque converter type transmissions - Mk5 Mondeo's with Petrol Engines.

Unless Ford put a petrol engine back in a Mondeo there will be no torque converter type trans fitted  It will not happen, Mondeo/Fusion are on the way out

It is only my opinion, but it could be that the  torque converter 6F35 Mid Range Ford/GM trans is not fitted to diesels as, official manufacturers figures show the 6F35 trans will not safely accept the max torque that the 2 litre diesel gives out.

So Dave, if you want to upgrade your old 2004 Mondeo, and want a torque converter type trans, you will have to buy a used Mk5 Mondeo petrol

[TrevorB]

RichardC 1983

Hi Richard, if you are really interested in your ST I can highly recommend a very busy and helpful Forum you could join.

I had 4 new Focus STs (petrol) but have been driving Mondeo since 2012. However the site is so helpful I still keep my membership up.

It is only £10 per annum and most people say it is the best £10 pa they ever spend. Here is the link

https://www.focusstoc.com/forums/

Forgot to say, the Auto is quicker 0 to 62 time than the manual

[Guy Heaton]

Trevor so is the 8-speed auto described in the latest Mondeo price list a TC or DCT?

 

PL-Mondeo.pdf

[TrevorB]

Hi Guy, it is the Getrag Powershift DCT (Diesel vehs) which has started coming through with 8 speed now. Started in the S Max some months ago.

It should make it a far better driver but I have not had the chance to drive one and do't think I will get a drive for some time yet with this world as it is  for whenever!

Your Focus ST is a torque converter type 8F24.  Nice with the X Pack, and a great colour