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Focus 2012 1.6TDCi Engine tapping noise


geraintthomas
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Very strange tapping (or very light knocking) noise. Has only started a few weeks ago, but the main thing is that it doesn't happen all the time. It does happen more than not, but some days the engine is totally smooth without this tapping at all. Very inconsistent.

Here's what it sounds like from the inside:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZX0rgrFKec

Here's what it sounds like from the outside (the noise doesn't come from the belt area):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcyftgbnG4E

It's on 141,000 miles and had its timing belt replaced about a year ago. Full service with oil change was around April. Engine's oil level is normal and there's no leaks around the engine.

One thing: the temperature gauge only seems to heat up to about 25% on the gauge, and it fluctuates now and again. This seems to be a bad thermostat which I'm going to replace soon, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case it's somehow weirdly related to this noise.

Cheers all.

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Hard to hear on the video really.

 

Mine has been doing the same for a couple of years now, but I always got the impression it was coming from the belt area.  It is more noticeable when driving with the windows open and you hear the reflection when you drive past buildings, sometimes more pronounced than others.  Typically when I took it to my normal garage to get it checked out it wasn't that obvious so hard to diagnose.  I uploaded a short video here https://youtu.be/i8IytudeIRU if it helps to compare, but not really that obvious either..

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Is that the cooling fan I can hear in the background?  The engine will struggle to heat up in cooler weather if you have the AC on as the cooling fan runs constantly and keeps the grill shutters open.

Ticking is probably injectors, common issue on the 8v engine.

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4 hours ago, south_bound said:

Hard to hear on the video really.

 

Mine has been doing the same for a couple of years now, but I always got the impression it was coming from the belt area.  It is more noticeable when driving with the windows open and you hear the reflection when you drive past buildings, sometimes more pronounced than others.  Typically when I took it to my normal garage to get it checked out it wasn't that obvious so hard to diagnose.  I uploaded a short video here https://youtu.be/i8IytudeIRU if it helps to compare, but not really that obvious either..

That's interesting... from the inside it sounds quite similar. If it's not doing any damage then I can live with it, it's only minor.

3 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Is that the cooling fan I can hear in the background?  The engine will struggle to heat up in cooler weather if you have the AC on as the cooling fan runs constantly and keeps the grill shutters open.

Ticking is probably injectors, common issue on the 8v engine.

Thought it could be injectors. Possibly just the seals?

I'll have to check the cooling actually, I usually leave the AC on. Would be better to use it only when needed?

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3 hours ago, geraintthomas said:

Thought it could be injectors. Possibly just the seals?

I'll have to check the cooling actually, I usually leave the AC on. Would be better to use it only when needed?

Unlikely to be seals on this engine, that's more of a 16v problem.  With these it's the injectors themselves that fail, many were even done under the 3 year warranty.  If they're original at 140k they've done well!  I wouldn't personally replace them until you get other issues like a drop in power or noticeable smoke though.

Regarding AC...other people will tell you to leave it on all the time to keep the seals supple and stop AC leaks.  However leaving it off will warm up the engine more quickly.  Your choice at the end of the day.  If you do switch it off in winter, just give it a run every couple of weeks or so.

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On 10/23/2020 at 5:51 PM, TomsFocus said:

Unlikely to be seals on this engine, that's more of a 16v problem.  With these it's the injectors themselves that fail, many were even done under the 3 year warranty.  If they're original at 140k they've done well!  I wouldn't personally replace them until you get other issues like a drop in power or noticeable smoke though.

Regarding AC...other people will tell you to leave it on all the time to keep the seals supple and stop AC leaks.  However leaving it off will warm up the engine more quickly.  Your choice at the end of the day.  If you do switch it off in winter, just give it a run every couple of weeks or so.

Thanks for the tips, much appreciated. Regarding the fan, I've just ordered a thermostat. Driving to work this morning (takes about 25 minutes) the temperature doesn't rise above the 1/4 mark, only if I coast with my foot off the throttle. It starts to creep up to almost 1/2 in about 15-20 seconds, until I put my foot down again and it'll drop in the same amount of time to the 1/4 mark. I've not seen anything like it. My previous Ford Fiesta had a thermostat stuck open which caused it to never raise above 1/4, so that mixed with the erratic behaviour (which is another sign of a bad thermostat), I thought I'd best order one. It's not done bad with the mileage that's for sure. Surprisingly, the previous Fiesta I had ran a little quieter with the new thermostat after it was warmed up. This could well be the issue with this car with the very slight tapping when it's warm, the engine won't be running at optimal temp which could cause it to run a tad noisier. I'll see if it's the cause of this one too.

If not, it could simply be the injectors as you've said. It may look at them, but I'm happy to live with them if they won't cause any issues yet.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update: Changed the thermostat to successfully fix my heat issue, but unfortunately it didn't fix the sound.

Right, the sound has changed slightly lately. It's a little more prominent chatter rather than the odd tap.

It's quite muffled in the video, but very noticeable in person. You'll have to turn your audio up.

Some info:

  • Only happens when warm. It's completely gone when the engine is cold.
  • Only on idle. When revving and driving, the sound isn't there.

It still happens when the car is in motion and idling (coasting), so don't think it's transmission.

Are we still thinking that it's injectors? oil maybe? Level is fine, but with the thermostat problem I'm wondering if the incorrect engine temperatures has something to do with degrading the oil... though that's a stab in the dark and probably doesn't make any sense.

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Well I just did an oil and filter change and it's fixed!

I drove it until it heated up and kept driving it, and it didn't come back. The engine sounds a lot smoother and quieter as a result, with no ticking on idle, so I guess it needed an oil change.

It's strange that it did this though. I wonder if it was something to do with how the thermostat kept the engine running far too cold, which could have caused the oil to lose its viscosity? Or perhaps it was low quality oil (the garage I bought it off apparently serviced it when I picked it up). Either way, an oil and filter change has fixed it, which is fantastic.

Thanks for the help everyone!

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Update: It's still there, and I think it's transmission related.

If I rev slightly, it stops. If I start to bite the clutch in first gear (whilst the handbrake is on) so the engine starts to bite and there revs dip ever so slightly, it stops. Sometimes it's there, other times it isn't. But here's the new thing... sometimes it appears when you start the engine whilst the engine vibrates. Essentially, big vibrations seem to cause it. Could be something loose, could be clutch related, but I'm starting to doubt it's engine related. Still it's not affecting anything and it's rare, so I'm fine with it. 

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If it was transmission related, it should stop with the clutch pressed while stationary.  It could be the DMF though.  The DMF 'wobbles' back and forth at idle.  When driving it gets pushed in one direction only, a light bite on the clutch will also have the same effect. 

(PS - Are you also fitting sideskirts to a non-Ford on another forum?)

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51 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

If it was transmission related, it should stop with the clutch pressed while stationary.  It could be the DMF though.  The DMF 'wobbles' back and forth at idle.  When driving it gets pushed in one direction only, a light bite on the clutch will also have the same effect. 

(PS - Are you also fitting sideskirts to a non-Ford on another forum?)

I really hope not, but it does sound like the DMF now that you've mentioned it.

It does sound a little like this:

And I have this identical sound when shutting off the engine:

By the sounds of it, it's a very expensive fix.

I'll just run it until it gets worse, if it doesn't damage the gearbox...

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I can't hear your video properly at the moment as I've got a dodgy ear but I wouldn't be too worried about it at this stage even if it is the DMF.  They usually get progressively worse over time rather than suddenly failing.  (Usually, not 100% guaranteed though.)

It's not a cheap fix but generally the clutch is on it's last legs by the time the DMF needs replacing anyway, so it's more of additional cost on a clutch change rather than something totally unexpected.  This is one of the issues with higher mileage cars though.

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22 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I can't hear your video properly at the moment as I've got a dodgy ear but I wouldn't be too worried about it at this stage even if it is the DMF.  They usually get progressively worse over time rather than suddenly failing.  (Usually, not 100% guaranteed though.)

It's not a cheap fix but generally the clutch is on it's last legs by the time the DMF needs replacing anyway, so it's more of additional cost on a clutch change rather than something totally unexpected.  This is one of the issues with higher mileage cars though.

In fact, ignore the first video I posted, sounds far different on my phone than listening to it now on my Speakers! The second video is identical though. 

I suppose that's not too bad. A quote I've just had off my trusty garage was around £600-£700 all in, which wasn't terrible. I won't have it done, I'll just keep driving it. If the noise stayed like this for a while I wouldn't be bothered.

It's knowing if stop/start would wear it. Some people say that it does, others don't. I didn't think it did due to the clutch being disengaged when stop/start functions (it requires the pedal to be pushed in for the engine to start, so it never starts with the clutch engaged), so surely it wouldn't wear? But I say that, I drove an hour the other night with stop/start enabled, and the DMF was a bit rattly on each stop/start sequence by the time I got home.

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Yes, the stop start will wear it, but so will idling so you can't really win there lol.  Maybe treat it like Sandra Bullock in Speed? :biggrin: 

It's under less strain with the clutch pressed, but it's still having to start moving from a stationary position each start.

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1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

Yes, the stop start will wear it, but so will idling so you can't really win there lol.  Maybe treat it like Sandra Bullock in Speed? :biggrin: 

It's under less strain with the clutch pressed, but it's still having to start moving from a stationary position each start.

Gotcha. So, worth disabling it? The car doesn't make a noise at all some days, sometimes it's very quiet on idle. That's where it's at, so it's early days in wearing. I'm wondering how long it would last...

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1 minute ago, geraintthomas said:

Gotcha. So, worth disabling it? The car doesn't make a noise at all some days, sometimes it's very quiet on idle. That's where it's at, so it's early days in wearing. I'm wondering how long it would last...

Too many variables really.  If it's only stopping for a few seconds at a zebra crossing then it's probably worth leaving idling.  If it's idling for several minutes at a level crossing then it's probably worth switching off. 

Again, too many variables as to how long it'll last as well...some people manage to keep them rattling for several years, others are unlucky and fail within a few weeks.

I know that's not at all helpful! :unsure:

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8 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Too many variables really.  If it's only stopping for a few seconds at a zebra crossing then it's probably worth leaving idling.  If it's idling for several minutes at a level crossing then it's probably worth switching off. 

Again, too many variables as to how long it'll last as well...some people manage to keep them rattling for several years, others are unlucky and fail within a few weeks.

I know that's not at all helpful! :unsure:

Not at all, that's very helpful. The car has done 141,000 miles as the engine sounds perfectly healthy, the car looks and drives like it's new, and at this point I'd normally throw the £600 at it to get it done, but I have a wedding to save up for! As I mentioned the issue is very early on. I drove to work today and didn't hear it at all. Last night I drove it and only heard it rattling lightly on idle once (like my videos at the beginning of this thread). That's all there is, it's hardly anything, but the reason why I ask with the stop/start is because it's a feature that I very much am fond of, and I'd hate to change my driving style because of a fault. But if needs must...

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1 hour ago, geraintthomas said:

Not at all, that's very helpful. The car has done 141,000 miles as the engine sounds perfectly healthy, the car looks and drives like it's new, and at this point I'd normally throw the £600 at it to get it done, but I have a wedding to save up for! As I mentioned the issue is very early on. I drove to work today and didn't hear it at all. Last night I drove it and only heard it rattling lightly on idle once (like my videos at the beginning of this thread). That's all there is, it's hardly anything, but the reason why I ask with the stop/start is because it's a feature that I very much am fond of, and I'd hate to change my driving style because of a fault. But if needs must...

The best thing you can do regarding driving style is avoid labouring the engine on the move.  It's good practice anyway, so chances are you're already doing it.  Much better to drop a gear for a hill than just mashing your foot in 6th while it groans and grumbles.

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On 11/12/2020 at 12:25 PM, TomsFocus said:

The best thing you can do regarding driving style is avoid labouring the engine on the move.  It's good practice anyway, so chances are you're already doing it.  Much better to drop a gear for a hill than just mashing your foot in 6th while it groans and grumbles.

I see, that's pretty much how I drive. Yesterday I drove it quite a bit, kept the foot in the clutch at lights that I knew were turning green soon to stop it going into stop/start mode, and released it when lights turn red or at queue's of traffic. Throughout the days worth of driving, I barely heard the ticking on idle, and the rattle on start-up was practically non-existent. Hopefully it'll stay like this for quite some time if I look after it!

Thanks for all of the help and advice, I very much appreciate it.

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I get a very similar noise on my mk2. I have been assuming it's either engine mounts on the way out or a rattly pulley, maybe even just... the noise of a diesel (only had petrols in the past). Sometimes the car vibrates harshly and shudders at switch off (so much for that anti-shudder valve eh?) Does the mk2 have this DMF? I'm interested in testing if my engine shudders at switch off with the clutch depressed, like in the video you linked.

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