Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[Scottman]

In other words that gent that wants global warming to have support from all political parties and absolute authority says that we should be content to se our economies crushed and our standard of living destroyed and be happy that it’s being done in a bipartisan manner!

Sorry. But No.

[Hackney]

On 8/13/2023 at 1:42 AM, Linds said:

John Cadogan with some (Australian) thoughts on the transition from ICE vehicles to EV's and the impact or otherwise on the future resale values of ICE cars bought over the next few years.

 

He is very good, pulls no punches.Calls out any companies that are not doing the right thing, have been listening to him for a number of years.

[Scottman]

I think the ice and EV markets are going to be divided For the foreseeable future. EV is perfect, from a range and driving pattern perspective, for several people I know that have them. They are not suitable for many people for the same reasons.

My greatest concern is around the potential hazards and risks of the rapid charging mode if the battery temperature controls ( that are always monitoring, even when the EV is sitting unused for days or weeks) should malfunction or completely fail.

I can disconnect the battery from my Fiesta and let it sit completely dormant for months with no adverse effects. Can the same be said of any EV?

 

[unofix]

1 hour ago, Scottman said:

I can disconnect the battery from my Fiesta and let it sit completely dormant for months with no adverse effects. Can the same be said of any EV?

 

Much bigger battery, so you'd need a much bigger spanner 🤣

[eddie eastwood]

EV graveyards.

https://order-order.com/

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/

[iantt]

2 hours ago, eddie eastwood said:

EV graveyards.

https://order-order.com/

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/

Small numbers compared to the 10 million bev and phev on China's roads  

[iantt]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:22 PM, Scottman said:

I think the ice and EV markets are going to be divided For the foreseeable future. EV is perfect, from a range and driving pattern perspective, for several people I know that have them. They are not suitable for many people for the same reasons.

My greatest concern is around the potential hazards and risks of the rapid charging mode if the battery temperature controls ( that are always monitoring, even when the EV is sitting unused for days or weeks) should malfunction or completely fail.

I can disconnect the battery from my Fiesta and let it sit completely dormant for months with no adverse effects. Can the same be said of any EV?

 

We have hundreds of battery mache -e and transits that are left for up to 12 months with no effect on the battery state of health. It's the 12v battery that will fail first after 12 months

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

11 hours ago, iantt said:

It's the 12v battery that will fail first after 12 months

I keep an eye on the Toyota forums out of possible future interest, and it's the same story there with hybrids. Lots of issues with the 12v battery particularly during lockdowns, rather than the traction battery.

(A lot of owners don't seem to realise they even have a 12v battery!)

 

 

[StephenFord]

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I keep an eye on the Toyota forums out of possible future interest, and it's the same story there with hybrids. Lots of issues with the 12v battery particularly during lockdowns, rather than the traction battery.

I wonder if it's the 'newer' cars that gave issues. Mum's Toyota Yaris (2001 vintage), was left for over 3 months and started 1st twist of key. Of course, it's a very basic car, but nevertheless, having a reliable car does make it very useful.

[iantt]

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

I wonder if it's the 'newer' cars that gave issues. Mum's Toyota Yaris (2001 vintage), was left for over 3 months and started 1st twist of key. Of course, it's a very basic car, but nevertheless, having a reliable car does make it very useful.

It's vehicles with emergency call/ telematics control units that wake up and discharge the 12 v battery. So not on a Yaris 2001. New cars without  telematics seem to be ok with 12v battery generally. 

[unofix]

4 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

(A lot of owners don't seem to realise they even have a 12v battery!)

Some haven't even worked out they only fill up with electricity 🤣

 

[Scottman]

The culprit for batteries going flat on modern cars is the perimeter anti theft system and the center capacitive touch screen for infotainment. Neither of them is ever actually “Off”.

The Japanese engineers I have worked with regarding emissions testing vehicles has termed this issue as “dark energy”. 

[iantt]

1 hour ago, Scottman said:

The culprit for batteries going flat on modern cars is the perimeter anti theft system and the center capacitive touch screen for infotainment. Neither of them is ever actually “Off”.

The Japanese engineers I have worked with regarding emissions testing vehicles has termed this issue as “dark energy”. 

But measuring current draw with anti theft on is minimal . I've tested cars with batteries going flat and it's not the infotainment or antitheft drawing current to any degree. Tested current draw every few hours for a few days( obviously not when I go home ) can only go on testing some ford models though. Maybe other manufacturers or other fords do have issues with that that type of current draw. 

[unofix]

So this is something we should all give thought to. What happens if you park your car (petrol/diesel/electric) in something like a multistory car park and it breaks down. Well in most cases the car will still be able to be pushed or even towed out. However if you have an electric parking brake or an automatic gearbox, or a 4 wheel drive and for what ever reason it just can't be moved then be prepared to dig deep in to your wallet.

The problem is going to be come a lot more common with the advent of the EV which in nearly all cases locks the motor driven wheels and can't even be dragged to a flat bed trailer.

Here is an Australian video on the problem of a guy stranded at a fast charger with his EV. Sorry the guy does waffle on at bit but if watch the first 10 - 12 minutes you'll get the idea.  

   

[StephenFord]

13 minutes ago, unofix said:

So this is something we should all give thought to..

Strewth! Skippy? What do you mean? The cars stuck in the car park? Take me to it right now, I'll bring the dollies... 😂

[Hackney]

2 hours ago, unofix said:

So this is something we should all give thought to. What happens if you park your car (petrol/diesel/electric) in something like a multistory car park and it breaks down. Well in most cases the car will still be able to be pushed or even towed out. However if you have an electric parking brake or an automatic gearbox, or a 4 wheel drive and for what ever reason it just can't be moved then be prepared to dig deep in to your wallet.

The problem is going to be come a lot more common with the advent of the EV which in nearly all cases locks the motor driven wheels and can't even be dragged to a flat bed trailer.

Here is an Australian video on the problem of a guy stranded at a fast charger with his EV. Sorry the guy does waffle on at bit but if watch the first 10 - 12 minutes you'll get the idea.  

   

It’s one of those ***** Chinese EVs, say no more.

[unofix]

3 minutes ago, Hackney said:

It’s one of those ***** Chinese EVs, say no more.

They are very good value for money. It includes fried rice,  and free prawn crackers with the top trim level 🤣

[Hackney]

4 minutes ago, unofix said:

They very good value for money. It includes fried rice,  and free prawn crackers with the top trim level 🤣

They are absolute garbage, lot of car rental companies have them now, just terrible things. Would not go near one, they don’t have a very good reputation here, sure they sell very well, but that is down to the price of the things. Would rather ‘walk’ over hot coals than purchase one!

[Scottman]

When anyone rents a Chinese EV ask the agent if they cover your personal injury costs if you are injured by the failure of the airbags to deploy. If the accident is or isn't your fault, the airbags should deploy in a collision. Several Chinese EV's have been cited in accident reports for failure of the supplemental restraints to do their thing at the critical moment.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Been up at our caravan for a few days. The upper Yorkshire Dales is a bit of an EV charging desert so I was interested to see the local filling station now said "EV charging" on its sign.

After much searching round the backyard I found 2 chargers like none I've ever seen, with no obvious way to pay. Popped in the kiosk and and discovered you have to buy a token in there for 2 hours charging. (I missed the token slot when looking at the chargers expecting to see the usual contactless or RFID pad, or instructions on which app you needed).

The first snag is that the kiosk is only manned part time (like many things up there its a community run facility relying on volunteers who do a great job). You can pay for petrol and derv via a payment terminal out of hours, but no way to get a token. So if you turned up with a near flat battery when the kiosk is shut, hard luck.

Other snag is the chargers are only 3.5kW. So, given that an average EV seems to do about 3.5-4 miles per kWh, that 2 hours would only get you about 25 miles anyway (unless you're @iantt who gets 7-8 miles/kWh of course!😀)

I'm guessing the local infrastructure (which is pretty shaky anyway) won't support bigger capacity chargers, but it does illustrate the difficulty of using BEVs in rural areas. (Nearest rapid chargers are at least 15 miles away.)

 

[StephenFord]

2 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I'm guessing the local infrastructure (which is pretty shaky anyway) won't support bigger capacity chargers, but it does illustrate the difficulty of using BEVs in rural areas. (Nearest rapid chargers are at least 15 miles away.)

What a perfect illustration of a fundamental flaw I have discussed many times. All our 'decision' makers live in London, a large sprawling urban area with fabulous public transport (when not on strike), and infinite options of charging EVs. However, the rest of us live in the real world.

They have no idea how rural, and semi rural communities live. NI I would include as all of it being semi rural!

Genuinely terrifies me the way government is pushing this folly on all of us without a basic understanding of how UK citizens live...

[unofix]

3 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

(Nearest rapid chargers are at least 15 miles away.)

Exactly just the right distance with room to spare! 👍

You spend two hours charging at the little dinky 3.5kW station which gives you just enough range to get you to the rapid charger. Then you can wait some more while you get a bigger boost 🤣

[iantt]

56 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

 

Other snag is the chargers are only 3.5kW. So, given that an average EV seems to do about 3.5-4 miles per kWh, that 2 hours would only get you about 25 miles anyway (unless you're @iantt who gets 7-8 miles/kWh of course!😀)

 

Not any more, Kona not quite as efficient as it's shaped like a brick.🤣🤣. Only 5.3miles/kWh at the moment while I enjoy 200hp. So addictive the acceleration. Will go back to economical driving in a few days. 

Where abouts is your caravan. You can charge on the way to your destination and not wait until you get there. 

The 3.5 kWh is a pretty pointless charging station. 

[StephenFord]

2 minutes ago, iantt said:

Where abouts is your caravan. You can charge on the way to your destination and not wait until you get there...

and there it lies - with a proper car, you wouldn't need to 'plan' a refueling stop, which may well not work when you arrive at it 🤣

[iantt]

If I were to visit the Yorkshire dales national park from my hometown , it's 160miles approx  So I would either get there with around 140 miles to visit the area and find a charging station to half charge or thereabouts ( 25 mins) the car on the way home.

Alternatively charge 80-90% when getting near to the dales. I will be on toilet stop 3 at my age. So last couple of stops can be charge stop too if required and something eat.