Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[StephenFord]

If you feel the government is a bit zealous in announcing that they are banning the sale of petrol & diesel cars in the UK in just 10 years, 2030, there is an existing petition you can sign.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/556842

[Guy Heaton]

What if you agree with them?  Given that the days of interesting V6s in "ordinary" cars are long gone I no longer care what's under the bonnet as long as it gives me torque.

[StephenFord]

3 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

What if you agree with them?

I suggest you don't sign it then 🤣

[Eric Bloodaxe]

As they don't seem to have paid much attentions to logic and practicality in coming out with this policy I doubt they'll take much notice of a petition either.

I've yet to see the meat of the proposals which I would hope (probably in vain) have a role for alternative/synthetic fuels, etc. The government seem to have decided a policy, which is their role, but are heavily biased towards choosing one particular technology (electric) to meet that policy. I have this uncomfortable feeling that they may ultimately be shown to have backed the wrong horse.

 

 

[Comares2001]

I doubt the government expects to meet the 2030 target . They're just trying to give everybody a nudge in that direction and especially to get industry to move faster in respect of charge points etc. You can't fight this change to EV's its going to happen one way or another.

[Andyr55]

Buy a cheap petrol car in sept 2029 (dealers will be giving them away) and that’s another 3/5 years on top.

[Mark-UK]

They are banning the sale of NEW  fossil fuel cars in 2030, there'll be plenty of under 6 month old pre-registered  ones available, if and it's a big if they are still making by then. With the vast majority of manufacturer already going hybrid or full electric I doubt there'll be fossil fuel cars even being made in 10 years time.

The major issue is charge points, outside terrace housed or tower blocks, I would expect any forward thinking petrol station is already think in 10 years time we are going to loose a huge amount of business unless we change some of our forecourt to superfast charging points. There is a Swiss 350kwh charger that put 120miles charge in 8 Mins, Give it another 10 years time they'll get even faster and there maybe no need to charge at home.

[StephenFord]

Just now, Andyr55 said:

Buy a cheap petrol car in sept 2029 (dealers will be giving them away) and that’s another 3/5 years on top.

Now you see, that's where our opinion differs - rarity often creates higher demand and with that higher prices. In car purchasing terms, I am a bottom feeder. All you guys splashing out £30,000 now on a new car, god bless you, because in 10/15 years, I'll be in the market for it as testament to my current 15 year old car shows.

Nothing to do with saving the planet (which admittedly I could care less), simple one of cost. There is NO way I could afford a battery car, and as for running out of charge on a motorway, will be intrigued how the AA/RAC man gets to his van and produces a gallon of electricity to get you going again.This morning, I filled up in about 4 minutes which will take me another 250 miles+  almost 40% of car owners currently don't even have access to an outside space in their home to charge their car!

Batteries simply cannot be recycled, and cause horrendous green issues themselves in the mass mining of Lithium. I am a fan of 'Hybrids' (which will be banned), and hydrogen cells (which isn't even on government agenda)

Still, if we get another virus that kills us all off, it will be a mute point...

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

I am a bottom feeder.

Lol

[Mark-UK]

8 minutes ago, Andyr55 said:

Buy a cheap petrol car in sept 2029 (dealers will be giving them away) and that’s another 3/5 years on top.

My last two cars have both lasted over 12 years, I know my old 2003 Nissan Micra is still going

[Mark-UK]

I also kinda think the same people moaning about electric cars are the ones that said engines wouldn't run or would wear out fast with un-leaded petrol.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

12 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

With the vast majority of manufacturer already going hybrid or full electric I doubt there'll be fossil fuel cars even being made in 10 years time.

I think you're right Mark. I reckon it mostly depends on the EU following suit (and indications are they will), so manufacturers won't make what they can't sell. Even other markets (China for example) are already big on electric, etc.

I'm interested to see how they treat synthetic fuels. All the ban announcements seem to talk about "fossil fuel" or " petrol/diesel" and as we know, the issue with an i/c engine is not the engine itself but what you burn in it. Bosch, who seem to be at the forefront of this, seem to be working on the basis that it's still worth pursuing in order to reduce emissions from the "legacy" i/c engined fleet.

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

23 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

I also kinda think the same people moaning about electric cars are the ones that said engines wouldn't run or would wear out fast with un-leaded petrol.

Lol, do you mean me? The problem I had at the time was not the absence of lead as such, but that the first unleaded was lower octane (about 3 star I think) and even after adjustment the car I had then didn't like it at all. 

Once the octane rating improved, no worries!😃

[Guy Heaton]

Its only a ban on pure ICE.  Some hybrids will still be allowed, I'd want to know which.  The current mild hybrids with just a tiny electric motor are just paying lip service really.  Full hybrids do at least try and run the engine at a constant efficient level.

[StephenFord]

10 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

Its only a ban on pure ICE.  Some hybrids will still be allowed, I'd want to know which.  The current mild hybrids with just a tiny electric motor are just paying lip service really.  Full hybrids do at least try and run the engine at a constant efficient level.

Source - What Car

The ban on the sale of petrol and diesel-fuelled models (including hybrids and plug-in hybrids) was initially due to come into force in 2040 and had already been moved to 2030, with the Government saying this was necessary for the UK to achieve its target of emitting virtually zero carbon by 2050.

However, while the ban has been brought forward again, plug-in hybrid cars that can operate for short distances on pure electric power will get a stay of execution until 2035.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

10 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

Its only a ban on pure ICE.  Some hybrids will still be allowed, I'd want to know which.  The current mild hybrids with just a tiny electric motor are just paying lip service really.  Full hybrids do at least try and run the engine at a constant efficient level.

Apparently it's those which can be driven a "significant" distance in zero emissions mode. So Ford's MHEVs would be out, but I guess a full hybrid (Toyota claim theirs run on electric over 50% of the time) and PHEVs would qualify.

[StephenFord]

45 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

Its only a ban on pure ICE.

Phew, thank goodness for that - there is only about 32,000,000 of those currently on the road in the UK right now, so I'm sure we'll hardly notice a total ban LOL

[TomsFocus]

This is the kind of anarchy that occurs if white socks are allowed...  

Have you guys noticed the VW charging points at Tesco stores now?  It makes sense in the large Extra store where you might spend 30+ minutes and can even have your dinner in their cafe.  But they've also fitted one outside the Tesco Metro...how long can anyone spend in a Tesco Metro!?   

[williamweb]

3 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

This is the kind of anarchy that occurs if white socks are allowed...  

Have you guys noticed the VW charging points at Tesco stores now?  It makes sense in the large Extra store where you might spend 30+ minutes and can even have your dinner in their cafe.  But they've also fitted one outside the Tesco Metro...how long can anyone spend in a Tesco Metro!?   

Ideal for staff topping up on minimum wage😁

[Linds]

Wow!!! Just 75 signatures so far ... I don't think I'll bother!  Anyway, will probably be pushing up daisies by 2030 ... thank goodness!!

[Eric Bloodaxe]

20 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

But they've also fitted one outside the Tesco Metro...how long can anyone spend in a Tesco Metro!?   

I notice one of the local filling stations (which is also a mini M & S food store) has installed a couple of charging points, but again, people are usually only in there for a few minutes, so no time to charge up. And they've put the chargers on the normal parking bays so if someone's charging you can't park, unless you block one of the fossil fuel pumps. Not fully thought through, imo!😃

[Eric Bloodaxe]

3 minutes ago, Linds said:

Wow!!! Just 75 signatures so far ... I don't think I'll bother!  Anyway, will probably be pushing up daisies by 2030 ... thank goodness!!

Well, no harm in signing it anyway if you feel strongly about it. I've always thought it was preferable to write to my MP (with a reasoned argument as to why you think the policy is not right, rather than just "I don't like it!" 😃). At least you should get the courtesy of a reply and in most cases I've found both my current MP and his predecessor pretty good and they have raised the issue with the relevant minister, either in writing or a question in the House, so at least you feel they've done some work for you. 

I did once get an amusing letter from my MP on an issue I'd raised with him. He enclosed a reply he'd had from the minister concerned (which happened to be Chris "Failing" Grayling) and my MPs letter made pretty clear what he thought of it (which was not a lot!)

 

[Carl123]

20 hours ago, Andyr55 said:

Buy a cheap petrol car in sept 2029 (dealers will be giving them away)

I suspect the opposite

The "last of the line" Petrol cars will become collectors' items for those that can afford them

I predict prices will skyrocket in 2029 as people flock to buy one.

 

[StephenFord]

31 minutes ago, Carl123 said:

I suspect the opposite

The "last of the line" Petrol cars will become collectors' items for those that can afford them

I predict prices will skyrocket in 2029 as people flock to buy one.

 

As will the price of used cars will too. Oh, what about the fleet of garages around the country trained in 'mechanics', many will go to the wall as they may not be able to adopt the skill of fixing a computer on wheels.The weekend hobby of millions will vanish of 'tinkering' with their engine, the supply chain of service parts will dry up. Kinda like lockdown, the government didn't think that asking people to work from home would destroy the local sandwich shop, and indeed many other shops as they no longer had any customers. Society is highly integrated, dependant on each other, and this ban will be a disaster...

[DaveT70]

10 yrs is a long time in the engineering world.

By the time 2028 comes there will be hydrogen fuel cell vehicles available. No need for charging etc

BEVs are a passing fad, a stop gap and will be replaced by Hydrogen vehicles. BEVs are effectively betamax. I shan't be buying one, I will wait for Hydrogen

That solves all the infrastructure issues.

Until then, I will stick with Diesel