Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[StephenFord]

5 hours ago, Mark-UK said:

As for E10 in NI you have just a few months left of E5 as NI joins the rest in spring 2022 ( you are not in the EU, but still in the single market, a different thing from the full EU membership)

Being in the single market, and under the authority of the ECJ (European Court of Justice) is being in the EU! My vote for 'Brexit' never really contemplated the dogs dinner we now have 🤣

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, StephenFord said:

My vote for 'Brexit' never really contemplated the dogs dinner we now have

Well, you've surprised me there Stephen, I was convinced you were a remainer.😀

[StephenFord]

2 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Well, you've surprised me there Stephen, I was convinced you were a remainer.😀

mmm... never judge a book... LOL 🤣

[Eric Bloodaxe]

On 11/21/2021 at 3:59 PM, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Spotted there's a programme on Channel 4 tomorrow at 8.30 pm - "The Truth about Electric Cars" - might be worth a watch.

Did anyone else catch this? The guy presenting it was pretty much pro-EV, having had one for 5 years or so, so I don't think you could accuse him of anti-EV bias.

However, there was certainly nothing in the programme that would encourage me to buy one at this stage. 

One point that I hadn't really appreciated was that, for optimum battery life, manufacturers recommend not charging above 80%, or letting charge fall below 20%. So to make your battery last, you are effectively unable to use 40% of its capacity on a regular basis.

Of course, if you are on a 3 year lease/PCP you probably won't care, but purchasers of used EVs are going to have to look carefully at battery condition, it appears.

[Tizer]

2 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

One point that I hadn't really appreciated was that, for optimum battery life, manufacturers recommend not charging above 80%, or letting charge fall below 20%. So to make your battery last, you are effectively unable to use 40% of its capacity on a regular basis.

Some people religiously do the same when charging their mobile phones but I'm not sure it makes any difference. I charge my mobile fully every night and have never had any measurable degradation, quick charging is more likely to be detrimental to any battery because excess heat kills batteries.

I did see most of the programme and there was nothing there that wasn't already known. 

[TomsFocus]

7 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Did anyone else catch this? The guy presenting it was pretty much pro-EV, having had one for 5 years or so, so I don't think you could accuse him of anti-EV bias.

However, there was certainly nothing in the programme that would encourage me to buy one at this stage. 

One point that I hadn't really appreciated was that, for optimum battery life, manufacturers recommend not charging above 80%, or letting charge fall below 20%. So to make your battery last, you are effectively unable to use 40% of its capacity on a regular basis.

If course, if you are on a 3 year lease/PCP you probably won't care, but purchasers of used EVs are going to have to look carefully at battery condition, it appears.

I watched it...  They seemed to push that 20-80% thing hard but I don't believe it's as bigger deal as they were suggesting.  The same is meant to be true for mobile phones.  I fully charge my phone on rapid charge every 3 or 4 days from the teens...haven't noticed any reduction in battery life in 3 years. 

I don't think anyone was surprised that a 9 year old Leaf had poor range.  It's old tech now anyway.  But most of the battery degradation has already happened, not fully charging it now is closing the gate after the horse has bolted.  Pointless comparison.

The thing I wasn't aware of is the level of VOC's from hybrids.  I assume that's based on a cold start immediately charging the battery for more effective charging same as SmartCharge does?  Anyone with a Dyson purifier (or similar) can measure VOCs...they're not readable in my flat (even after a heavy cleaning session!)...anyone in a city have a high VOC reading indoors generally?

I must admit, I don't find those 'truth about' programmes particularly helpful. They always seem to be biased against everything they're doing...  Which is fine if you look carefully at the points, but just taking that programme on face value suggested that everyone should be buying diesels for low VOCs and no range anxiety...  Not really the way to go imo!

 

[StephenFord]

22 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Did anyone else catch this? The guy presenting it was pretty much pro-EV, having had one for 5 years or so, so I don't think you could accuse him of anti-EV bias.

 

I so hate to say (actually I don't really LOL), I told you so!! battery cars will be the next consumer disaster which will have the power to bring down the government because of their blind arrogance that they have 'discovered' the future.

The thing is, when people bought Betamax, LaserDisks, 'Rabbit' phones, 'squarial' satellite systems, etc, for the cutting edge early adopters, they didn't really break the bank when all eventually failed.

The thing about 'battery' cars is that at a cost of £20k to £40k, for most of us, that is an absolute major purchase which when they don't work as they're meant to as a replacement for ICE cars, they will leave people financially in great difficulty. Not to mention an environmental burden as they try to scrap redundant technology!

There is a huge disaster looming on the horizon, and sadly the government seem to be wearing a blindfold heading straight to it...

I told you so, oh, I already said that... 🤣

[mjt]

24 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The thing I wasn't aware of is the level of VOC's from hybrids

It isn't only hybrids, it's all petrol engines. I reverted to petrol a few years ago thinking it was a better option in regards to particulates, NOX and not having the hassles associated with DPFs but now, with GPFs and the VOC issue, who knows what's best? I'm forced to think that, notwithstanding all the potential issues of range, pure EV is the only long-term answer.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

9 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I must admit, I don't find those 'truth about' programmes particularly helpful. 

9 hours ago, Tizer said:

I did see most of the programme and there was nothing there that wasn't already known. 

 

Yes, I suppose we on here know (or think we do!😀) a bit more than the "average" car buyer at whom the programme was presumably aimed, but I wasn't at all sure at the end which way they were leaning or what audience it was aimed at. 

The charger issues have certainly been well covered already over several years now and it's a bit disappointing that not much progress seems to have been made. I make a point of looking at EV chargers wherever I see them and still find many missing, out of order and with a plethora of payment systems. The programme did mention government legislation next year but really, payment by debit/credit card should have been sorted from the start.

Yeah, the 9 year old Leaf was a bit naughty but Nissans response was a bit sniffy I thought. MG came over better with comments about further improving their information to drivers on the charging regime.

Autocar did a comparison recently on buying a new VW ID3 versus a used Jaguar I-Pace for approximately the same money. Both Jag and VW give an 8 year/100k mile transferable warranty on the battery and will replace it if it fails to retain 70% capacity before then. The article suggested that high mileage cars that have been fully charged and rapid charged routinely were the likeliest to suffer early battery capacity degredation. (Or, I guess, exactly the sort of 2 or 3 year old ex-lease company cars you often find on the used market.)

I was a bit thrown by the VOC thing also. I don't think the Jeep they featured is the best example of a hybrid, but to me, if you're heading towards EV (or other zero emission vehicle) the 5 years extra for hybrids is a bit pointless.

The SMMT man, Mike Hawes, seemed a bit wrong-footed by the VOC thing but muttered something about further emission legislation in a couple of years. I presume he means Euro 7 - and the heads of Stellantis and Renault have already said they're not prepared to make the investment to meet that, but it's not clear yet whether it will apply to all models in production at the date of implementation, or just to new ones introduced afterwards.

8 hours ago, StephenFord said:

I told you so, oh, I already said that... 🤣

Yes, I think you may have mentioned it!😀

[TomsFocus]

1 hour ago, mjt said:

It isn't only hybrids, it's all petrol engines. 

Indeed.  But the programme suggested hybrids were considerably worse than full petrol's for VOCs...without explaining why that should be. 

I agree that at the moment full EV is the best way to go for the forseeable.  I think it'll be a long time before the VCR of this situation arrives personally.

[TomsFocus]

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

The charger issues have certainly been well covered already over several years now and it's a bit disappointing that not much progress seems to have been made. I make a point of looking at EV chargers wherever I see them and still find many missing, out of order and with a plethora of payment systems. The programme did mention government legislation next year but really, payment by debit/credit card should have been sorted from the start.

Yeah, the 9 year old Leaf was a bit naughty but Nissans response was a bit sniffy I thought. MG came over better with comments about further improving their information to drivers on the charging regime.

Autocar did a comparison recently on buying a new VW ID3 versus a Jaguar I-Pace for approximately the same money. Both Jag and VW give an 8 year/100k mile transferable warranty on the battery and will replace it if it fails to retain 70% capacity before then. The article suggested that high mileage cars that have been fully charged and rapid charged routinely were the likeliest to suffer early battery capacity degredation. (Or, I guess, exactly the sort of 2 or 3 year old ex-lease company cars you often find on the used market.)

I was a bit thrown by the VOC thing also. I don't think the Jeep they featured is the best example of a hybrid, but to me, if you're heading towards EV (or other zero emission vehicle) the 5 years extra for hybrids is a bit pointless.

The SMMT man, Mike Hawes, seemed a bit wrong-footed by the VOC thing but muttered something about further emission legislation in a couple of years. I presume he means Euro 7 - and the heads of Stellantis and Renault have already said they're not prepared to make the investment to meet that, but it's not clear yet whether it will apply to all models in production at the date of implementation, or just to new ones introduced afterwards.

I wasn't even aware Jeep made a hybrid before that programme!  I'm not sure if it's Jeep's own or bought in from elsewhere but I did wonder if a long-term player in the hybrid market like Toyota managed the VOCs any better.  I agree the 5 year extension for hybrids seems a bit pointless, though they'll have to have 'significant zero emission capability' which effectively means big enough batteries to keep them out of normal sized cars. 

The charger issue is a pain.  It was a long time before phone chargers became standardised as well (except one...  ).  I don't see what the manufacturers gain from restricting the accessibility of their chargers.  The fact that so many are out of order doesn't make sense either.  I know there's an element of trial and error as they try to make the chargers as efficient and robust as possible, while also keeping the costs low, but they must have been out long enough to find the weak points by now.  Personally I'd remove the touch screens for a start, I know it looks modern but they're not worth the hassle on something that'll be outside in all weathers and getting huge amounts of use every day.  A physical keypad should be more reliable.

The 8 year/100k warranty on batteries sounds good enough to me.  That's the sort of stage that you'd expect big bills on an ICE car nowadays - cambelt, clutch, DPF/EGR, injectors etc.  It'll make it difficult for people buying them at 10+ years old but that's the same for ICE now...  The days of buying a £500, 15 year old, car to last a couple of years without any maintenance or repairs are long gone...

[StephenFord]

2 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The days of buying a £500, 15 year old, car to last a couple of years without any maintenance or repairs are long gone...

😪😪😪

[Tizer]

52 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Indeed.  But the programme suggested hybrids were considerably worse than full petrol's for VOCs...without explaining why that should be. 

My view is that if the engine is charging the battery as well as the regenerative charging then there will be more emissions because producing electricity inefficient, to put 1Kw of power into a battery uses more than 1 Kw of engine power. 

This has always been my argument against Start/Stop, no one has published data about the extra emissions and fuel used to put the charge back into the battery that has been wasted when S/S is active, apart from a seriously flawed Youtube video.  

[StephenFord]

10 minutes ago, Tizer said:

This has always been my argument against Start/Stop, no one has published data about the extra emissions and fuel used to put the charge back into the battery that has been wasted when S/S is active...

Just as well then that S/S never seems to work properly anyway! 😁

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

I wasn't even aware Jeep made a hybrid before that programme!  I'm not sure if it's Jeep's own or bought in from elsewhere but I did wonder if a long-term player in the hybrid market like Toyota managed the VOCs any better. 

Jeep was part of Fiat Chrysler (now merged into Stellantis) so that little Jeep thing is basically a Fiat underneath, I think.

It was an odd choice to represent hybrids when Toyota have been leaders in that field for years. Almost as if someone wanted it to look bad.

[Wino]

Yep. Watched it here too but like posted earlier above. It didnt really mention much if anything that we didn't know already.

Perhaps this is why Ford only allow the SOC in the current ( no pun) Focus to only teach 80% just to prolong the battery life 😄

[Eric Bloodaxe]

6 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

The 8 year/100k warranty on batteries sounds good enough to me.  That's the sort of stage that you'd expect big bills on an ICE car nowadays - cambelt, clutch, DPF/EGR, injectors etc.  It'll make it difficult for people buying them at 10+ years old but that's the same for ICE now...  The days of buying a £500, 15 year old, car to last a couple of years without any maintenance or repairs are long gone...

True enough. It seems that EVs are getting to the point where the battery is almost integral to the structure (or even, so I've read, the structure itself becomes the battery.)

Just pondering, though,  If we're really supposed to be thinking green, would it not be preferable for the battery and electronics to be upgradeable several times during a longer vehicle lifetime rather than scrap/recycle the whole lot every 8 years or so?

Talk now is of different ownership models such as subscription, so if you were paying £x per month for the use of an EV, would it matter much if it was "old" provided the battery and tech were up to date provided the £x was low enough? Wouldn't really be that different to renting a reconditioned iPhone.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

On 11/21/2021 at 3:59 PM, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Also Panorama on BBC 1 7.30pm Wednesday  has a feature "The Electric Car Revolution - Winners and Losers".

Will also watch this one out of interest, but from what I've seen it's more concerned with how ethical EV makers supply chains are, rather than about the pros and cons of EVs themselves.

[StephenFord]

3 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Also Panorama on BBC 1 7.30pm Wednesday  has a feature "The Electric Car Revolution - Winners and Losers".

And for those in NI, you can watch it at 11.05pm LOL

[TomsFocus]

7 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

And for those in NI, you can watch it at 11.05pm LOL

Blimey, how many time zones are there between here and there!? 😮

[StephenFord]

1 minute ago, TomsFocus said:

Blimey, how many time zones are there between here and there!? 😮

Quite a lot Tom, some parts of NI are still in the 1960s 🤣

[TomsFocus]

43 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Just pondering, though,  If we're really supposed to be thinking green, would it not be preferable for the battery and electronics to be upgradeable several times during a longer vehicle lifetime rather than scrap/recycle the whole lot every 8 years or so?

Not sure the manufacturers would take kindly to upgradable cars and the loss of new car profits..they're already going to lose the markup on oil & filter servicing! 

I suppose there's an argument for improvements in other areas though, particularly safety & security...not to mention aesthetics which is really what sells new cars.

Hopefully they'll at least make as many parts recyclable as possible and and keep them within a closed loop system.

[StephenFord]

18 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

 

I suppose there's an argument for improvements in other areas though, particularly safety & security...not to mention aesthetics which is really what sells new cars.

 

Ironically, won't all the modern gadgetry that drivers seem to want in their cars, like, radar avoidance, adaptive cruise, memory seats, heated windscreens, climate control,  high beam assist, rain detectors, lane assist etc etc etc run the battery down even quicker?

[unofix]

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

Ironically, won't all the modern gadgetry that drivers seem to want in their cars, like, radar avoidance, adaptive cruise, memory seats, heated windscreens, climate control,  high beam assist, rain detectors, lane assist etc etc etc run the battery down even quicker?

No !!

There is a petrol driven generator in the boot to power all that stuff....... They're not stupid you know !  🤣

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Not sure the manufacturers would take kindly to upgradable cars and the loss of new car profits..they're already going to lose the markup on oil & filter servicing! 

If we're serious about saving the planet, they'll have to do a rethink on their business model - which most of them already are, by starting to morph into mobility providers rather than just car manufacturers.

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

 

I suppose there's an argument for improvements in other areas though, particularly safety & security...not to mention aesthetics which is really what sells new cars.

The green generation will just have to decide what their priorities are. If we're talking "safety" features like lane departure that tries to steer you where you don't want to go and "security" features like keyless entry that gets your car stolen, many of us can well do without anyway!😀

 

2 hours ago, StephenFord said:

Ironically, won't all the modern gadgetry that drivers seem to want in their cars, like, radar avoidance, adaptive cruise, memory seats, heated windscreens, climate control,  high beam assist, rain detectors, lane assist etc etc etc run the battery down even quicker?

Probably yes. But I wonder if people really do want all that stuff anyway - is there a real demand or is it created by marketing hype. (Some of it is down to legislators of course.) None of my friends are exactly hard up, but what I hear from them most often when discussing cars is something like "Why can't I just buy a car with the few bits I do want, without paying for a load of cr*p that I don't need?" 

 

Being a bit tongue in cheek of course, but I really don't see you can just carry on in the same old way, only with batteries.