Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[Guy Heaton]

Easy peasy just ramscoop the upper atmosphere of Jupiter.  Or the sun.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, Guy Heaton said:

Easy peasy just ramscoop the upper atmosphere of Jupiter.  Or the sun.

Lol, not sure that's too practical!😀 My daft thought was this. The hydrogen combustion engine is fuelled by hydrogen, mixed with oxygen, as in all ICEs. So given that water is H2O, why can't you run it on water?

(I really do wish now that I'd spent more time listening to my science teacher 50 - odd years ago, instead of chatting to the girls sat at the lab bench in front!)

[TomsFocus]

With that logic we should be able to run ICE engines on CO2, that'd solve the issue!  

The geeky answer is that H+O2 creates an exothermic reaction which is where the energy comes from.  

[mjt]

5 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

There are proposals to open a new deep mine in Whitehaven specifically to produce coking coal which is still used in steelmaking. That now looks doubtful due to opposition from the green lobby even though the alternative is importing coal from overseas.

Our heritage railways could have used that coal as well but they'll also need to import, producing a much larger carbon footprint. Unfortunately the tree-huggers can't see beyond the end of their noses.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

15 minutes ago, mjt said:

Our heritage railways could have used that coal as well

Different sort of coal, according to the Rail Insider website, but I take your point on tree huggers noses!😀

POSTED BY: RAIL INSIDER 2 FEBRUARY 2021

As green campaigners attack the recent government decision to allow the opening of a new coal mine in Cumbria, the UK’s heritage railways have been forced to look abroad for their coal supplies.

The new mine at Woodhouse Colliery, near Whitehaven, will mine around three million tonnes of coking coal from under the Irish Sea each year. This will be go towards the eight million tonnes used annually by UK industry, leaving five million tonnes still needed to be imported.

However, the heritage railways, as well as other users of steam-powered machinery such as traction engines and pumping stations, need bituminous lump coal, which is not the same thing. The two recent planning applications for coal mines in the North East – which were recommended by government inspectors who were then overruled by the Secretary of State – would have produced suitable coal, but their planning permission was refused.

The sole remaining source of steam coal in the UK is in Wales, and that mine is due to close in 2022.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

47 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The geeky answer is that H+O2 creates an exothermic reaction which is where the energy comes from.  

Lol, the benefits of listening to teacher!😀

[TomsFocus]

In hindsight, I probably should have done more chatting and less learning...  Too little of either isn't ideal!

[Eric Bloodaxe]

26 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

In hindsight, I probably should have done more chatting and less learning...  Too little of either isn't ideal! 

Yes, life is all about achieving the right balance - easier said than done, unfortunately. I didn't learn much in science or get very far with the girls in front either!😀

[Eric Bloodaxe]

On 6/14/2021 at 4:41 PM, StephenFord said:

Hope you have been watching BBC's, 'Building Britains' Biggest Nuclear Power Station", an amazing 2 part series behind the scenes!

Now watched part two. That crane they used was absolutely amazing!

[Eric Bloodaxe]

3 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Did anyone watch the "Horizon" programme yesterday on BBC2 following the development of the various vaccines across the world? Very interesting indeed and added even more to my admiration for all those involved in a staggering achievement of science, manufacture and logistics.

Having mentioned this on the Covid vaccine thread, it got me thinking even more. If these absolutely brilliant people can come up with not one, but several vaccines in such a short space of time, are there not some equally brilliant people working in other fields that can come up with a simple and efficient way to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in a glass of water?😀

[StephenFord]

30 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Having mentioned this on the Covid vaccine thread, it got me thinking even more. If these absolutely brilliant people can come up with not one, but several vaccines in such a short space of time, are there not some equally brilliant people working in other fields that can come up with a simple and efficient way to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in a glass of water?😀

The one thing the Horizon show did highlight, was the absolute bottomless pit of money that was thrown at the issue from every government in the world. Literally multi £Billions in a very short space of time. Although there is much lip service for alternative fuels, no 'real' money is being spent. Also, you have a massive global industry of fossil fuels who have no true interest in hastening the demise of their business...

I have no doubt at all if the world concentrated as much effort into developing hydrogen as an alternative fuel, we'd have it done in 12 months... (but there is no news footage of people dying in the streets because of the ICE)

[Eric Bloodaxe]

3 hours ago, StephenFord said:

Although there is much lip service for alternative fuels, no 'real' money is being spent. Also, you have a massive global industry of fossil fuels who have no true interest in hastening the demise of their business...

. (but there is no news footage of people dying in the streets because of the ICE)

Yeah, I agree there does seem to be a lack of interest/investment in alternatives, perhaps the battery lobby has got in first, they certainly seem to have captured the minds of politicians. And you don't seem to see that much footage of the estimated 40,000 children mining Cobalt for batteries in the Democratic Republic of Congo, either, come to that.

Not sure about the fossil fuel industry though. Their future market for fossil fuels is the declining "legacy" market after 2030 or thereabouts, so I don't really see they would be threatening their business by developing hydrogen production. On the contrary, some of them seem to be hastening the demise of their fossil business by cutting new development and getting into charging networks and renewable energy.

Interesting that JCB, who are developing hydrogen fuelled ICE as mentioned earlier in this thread, have talked about supporting the existing supply chain for ICE technology, rather than chuck over 120 years of development down the pan. Also I believe Lord Bamford is a friend of Sir Jim Ratcliffe of Ineos, who have recently launched a specific hydrogen business (they already produce about 300,000 tonnes a year as a by product of their chemical businesses). There is supposedly a hydrogen powered version of the Grenadier 4x4 in development - I expected this would be a fuel cell but in view of JCB (and Toyota's) moves into hydrogen ICE I wonder if they could go that way.

I'm just fascinated to see how all this goes, really - just hoping I can hang around long enough to find out!😀

 

 

 

[StephenFord]

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[Guy Heaton]

Indeed. If the governments are mandating that fossil ice is no longer used then the oil giants will have to go into new areas or die. 

 

[iantt]

Played scalectrics today. Well adult version. Took the Mustang mach e for a little ride round our private roads around our compounds. Very impressed with the feel of it , and wow!!! The acceleration!! Tried 2wd and 4wd versions .

[Eric Bloodaxe]

15 hours ago, iantt said:

Took the Mustang mach e for a little ride round our private roads around our compounds. Very impressed with the feel of it

Sounds as if you actually liked it, Ian! Actually I'd love to be able to try a few electric/alternative fuel cars on a private road, airfield or whatever, just to get the "feel" of them and have an idea of what to expect when taking an actual dealer test drive on public roads. I've driven most types of combustion vehicles over the years, from a moped to an HGV, but haven't a clue what to look for in an electric car, driving wise!😀

[Eric Bloodaxe]

On holiday at the mo (self catering) and called in to a brand new Morrisons store this morning for a few essential  supplies and to top up the car. Very nice store, good car park, well laid out filling station.

I had a wander round to see where the EV charging was and eventually found one point in a corner of the car park which could charge only 2 cars at once, and then only if they had  different sockets. To use it you needed to install an app on your phone, no other payment option.

Bit of a contrast with the VW/Tesco partnership to install free chargers at their stores and rather disappointing I thought.

Why on earth chargers can't offer payment by credit/debit card (when not foc) is beyond me and is one more barrier to EV take up that should have been sorted by now.

 

 

 

[iantt]

as much as i like the mustang, the £42k - £58k price tag puts me off a little!!! the one to have is the range extender awd version at £58k though. 

ford need to concentrate on getting out an affordable fiesta or focus sized battery vehicle. not flashy and expensive. 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

8 minutes ago, iantt said:

ford need to concentrate on getting out an affordable fiesta or focus sized battery vehicle. not flashy and expensive. 

Yes, indeed. It does seem that it's easier to "hide" the extra costs of an EV in a larger vehicle that's costing £40k or £60k and more anyway, but smaller stuff remains a problem. As mentioned earlier in the thread cars like the Corsa-E are closest to my idea of "like a normal car, only electric" but at near enough £30k that's a heck of a premium over an MHEV Fiesta or even an ST!

[Mark-UK]

3 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

 As mentioned earlier in the thread cars like the Corsa-E are closest to my idea of "like a normal car, only electric" but at near enough £30k that's a heck of a premium over an MHEV Fiesta or even an ST!

Personally I typically keep my cars 10+ years, so the running costs have to be taken into account, I think over the longer term an EV maybe cheaper than the equivalent ICE car.

In the past the same sort of calculation used to be relevant with diesel v petrol.  The car diesel was £1000+ more to buy, but the extra mpg and cheaper fuel (it was cheaper than petrol once) made that premium price worth it if you did the mileage.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, Mark-UK said:

, I think over the longer term an EV maybe cheaper than the equivalent ICE car.

Quite possibly. What concerns me at the moment is there are too many unknowns - eg how will the Government fill the revenue lost from fuel duty - probably some form of road pricing. Electricity prices are going to rise to pay for non carbon generation. Battery/charger technology will probably improve quite dramatically - how will that affect residuals for "early adopters"? Other technologies/ alternative fuels may arise - JCB are looking at hydrogen ICE for plant and heavy vehicles but interestingly Toyota are also trialling a hydrogen powered version of the GR Yaris engine, in addition to their work on hydrogen fuel cells.

My guess is things will be a lot clearer by 2025 or so, but if in the meantime I had to go electric for some reason, I'd probably look to lease rather than purchase.

And who knows, in the future the whole concept of car ownership may disappear anyway in favour of rentals or subscriptions.

 

[Carl123]

16 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

And who knows, in the future the whole concept of car ownership may disappear anyway in favour of rentals or subscriptions.

Or electric scooters, they have seats now 😲, only a matter of time until someone fits a roof to them

[StephenFord]

13 minutes ago, Carl123 said:

... only a matter of time until someone fits a roof to them

That'll never catch on LOL 🤣

 

[Alex.S]

I’m deciding for next year between an id3 (basic trim) or a Golf GTE . A no brainer for me ! Looked at Toyota Corolla hybrid (they’ve been making hybrids forever) but now already advertising they’re making an ICE that emits only water. Sounds like a better idea. Elon Musk won’t be happy 😃 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, Alex.S said:

Looked at Toyota Corolla hybrid (they’ve been making hybrids forever) but now already advertising they’re making an ICE that emits only water. Sounds like a better idea. Elon Musk won’t be happy 😃 

Yes, I'm really hoping this works out and leaves a lot of egg on various faces!😀

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-readies-hydrogen-engine-technology-road-cars

The big drawback, at this early stage at least, seems to be reduced efficiency compared to petrol, which would need to be overcome. On the plus side, presumably, as you're burning no carbon, a hydrogen ICE would not require catalytic converters, particulate filters and various other emissions gear which would reduce complication and cost.