Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[Guy Heaton]

Yes, the ban is on pure ICE, not hybrid

I'm not sure Labour will get the next one, maybe the one after.  To get the next one they'd need the same landslide as Boris got.

 

[StephenFord]

32 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

Yes, the ban is on pure ICE, not hybrid

 

Sadly, the government has also banned 'hybrid' cars too! (Unless you can plug your hybrid into a power socket!)

[Eric Bloodaxe]

3 hours ago, Mark-UK said:

Is that not all they have done, said they'll ban new petrol and diesel cars, I don't think they have said it has to be electric, that's just an uniformed media not knowing there are alternatives .

Indeed, but govt have said an awful lot about battery production in the UK, programme to install chargers etc. I haven't seen a lot from them about alternatives to battery electric for passenger cars, though in fairness they have talked about hydrogen for rail applications.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there has been quite a lot about hydrogen in the mainstream press, another couple of major hydrogen plant investments in the UK have been mentioned since that earlier post. There have been a few reviews also, such as this one.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/car-reviews/hyundai-nexo-review-hydrogen-suv-21948281

Unfortunately not a lot of hydrogen cars to review at the mo.

 

4 hours ago, StephenFord said:

Tom, this is it's main strength, petitions are designed to get a foot in the door for further debate. An overly complex rhetoric at this stage puts many people off straight away. Many petitions I dealt with when in the public sector consisted of one line.

I don't think Tom was arguing that the petition should be longer/more complicated as such, just that (as I also suggested) it could be better drafted and make a less negative sounding case.

I agree it's a matter of getting something debated but I believe you need 10,000 signatures to get a statement from government and 100,000 for a debate in the House and I'm concerned that this one will not attract enough signatories.

I have signed it btw, not because I necessarily disagree with the ban in principle, but because I regard this as an important issue worthy of proper debate and this petition, though I don't much care for its wording, is the only one still running.

I did see while looking up petitions that the Petitions Committee have also rejected one calling for an even earlier  ban from 2025 (in line with Norway) on the same grounds i.e. that a petition is already running on the same subject. So it seems you have to vote for this petition if you want the issue discussed, whether you like it or not!

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Eric Bloodaxe
Extra sentence

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, StephenFord said:

Sadly, the government has also banned 'hybrid' cars too! (Unless you can plug your hybrid into a power socket!)

Yes, as I understand it self-charging hybrids such as the Prius**will not qualify for the extension to 2035 and mild hybrids like Ford's MHEV that never run on solely electric power, certainly won't.

Topically an item in the media today referred to tests that show PHEV's are not as effective as touted either. Apparently in real life driving they were putting out as much as 8 times the amount of CO2 and achieving only 75% of the electric only range that the official test figures claimed.

**Edit: Tbh the more I read about hybrids the less clear I am about what will actually qualify. I think the phrase used was capable of running a "significant" distance in zero emissions mode. Toyota claim their self-charging hybrids can run in electric.more up to 50% of the time. Some more clarification will hopefully be forthcoming!

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Eric Bloodaxe
Extra paragraph

[StephenFord]

Interesting to note that after only a handful of days, this topic has now stretched to 6 pages, almost 2000 views, and over 100 comments. Yet, our government doesn't feel it worthy of debate! 🙄

[Guy Heaton]

That's a fair point.

I had a look at hydrogen cars, for a giggle.

Only need £1200 a month to lease one. 😄

https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/toyota/mirai/saloon/hydrogen-fuel-cell-4dr-cvt

 

[StephenFord]

12 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

That's a fair point.

I had a look at hydrogen cars, for a giggle.

Only need £1200 a month to lease one. 😄

https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/toyota/mirai/saloon/hydrogen-fuel-cell-4dr-cvt

 

Guy, that is one ugly looking bus LOL

[Eric Bloodaxe]

32 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

That's a fair point.

I had a look at hydrogen cars, for a giggle.

Only need £1200 a month to lease one. 😄

https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/toyota/mirai/saloon/hydrogen-fuel-cell-4dr-cvt

 

Lol. There are cheaper deals -saw a Hyundai Nexo hydrogen for only £917 a month - snip!😀

 

[iantt]

Who needs 500hp when 1 is sufficient. 

The future is here. 

[StephenFord]

1 minute ago, iantt said:

Who needs 500hp when 1 is sufficient. 

The future is here. 

 

and the exhaust waste will even help your plants to grow!

[iantt]

Other variants are available. 

[Lonedev]

1 hour ago, Guy Heaton said:

That's a fair point.

I had a look at hydrogen cars, for a giggle.

Only need £1200 a month to lease one. 😄

https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/toyota/mirai/saloon/hydrogen-fuel-cell-4dr-cvt

 

Seen those for rent in Scotland, £50 a day, £7 an hour, £15 overnight, +25p/mile. Half tempted to grab one for a day or two to see what it's like. They have electric cars like the BMW i3 for much cheaper too. There's a chance the hydrogen cars will vanish since electric is mainstream, so would be a check off on the weird cars bucket list. 

That said, a full electric ST or RS hot hatch could be loads of fun! I'll likely be mainly sticking to petrol/diesel for the next decade through preference but I'm not too worried about an all electric future.  Driverless tech on the other hand... I hope it never becomes illegal to drive manually, at least not on more fun roads. Forced inside of congested cities I'd be fine with, 40 winks on the way to work instead of working through mind numbing traffic jams and crazed pedestrians would be pretty nice.

[Alex.S]

I’m all for it. In fact the sooner the better. 
There’s a lot of Tesla’s in uk now. Seeing 20 and 70 plates everywhere. 
I’ve family in US. Nephew drives a Kia hybrid. 1000 miles a tank..cheap ‘gas’ too. 
But Tesla, the battery has a 100,000 mile /9 year warranty. 
0-60 in 5 seconds. That’s the cheaper ones. My sister reckons can pick up a brand new one for $30k 

Where do I sign? 

[StephenFord]

4 minutes ago, Alex.S said:

But Tesla, the battery has a 100,000 mile /9 year warranty. 

 

A few pages back I highlighted this issue. That's great for the new owner, maybe even the 2nd one too, but if you buy cars in the lower echelons of it's life (I drive a 15 year old Mk2!), this effectively scraps battery cars straight into landfill. A replacement battery for a simple Prius can be around £5000, this puts it out of budget for the poor amongst us. battery cars are for the rich, with a driveway to charge, and likely to remain so...

[Alex.S]

Most petrol/fuel engines are scrapped before or around the 100k mark. 
£5k seems to be the going rate , Nissan Leaf is the same price.
Government pays £1k of the £5k to replace it. Rust/structural damage would determine if that’s worthwhile. 

[Alex.S]

☝️ ☝️ ☝️ I drove 2 Vauxhall’s before the focus! 

[StephenFord]

18 minutes ago, Alex.S said:

Most petrol/fuel engines are scrapped before or around the 100k mark. 
 

Where on earth did you get that figure from? My Celica GT4 had 178,000 on it before I sold it on, My Mercedes C class had 165,000, and my current Mk2, just this week has passed it's 100,000 milestone, the darn thing is barely run in LOL

[Alex.S]

Been my experience. 
 

[StephenFord]

9 hours ago, Alex.S said:

Been my experience. 
 

Aahhh... so an opinion, rather than fact - no problem, we have a government that works on that strategy LOL 🤣

[TomsFocus]

There's a lovely Tesla down my road...I get a great view of it as it keeps passing on the back of a low-loader every few weeks.  Honestly, how much can go wrong with a battery and a motor!?  

Cars don't go to landfill anymore.  They have to be (almost) completely recyclable now.  Batteries included.  As mentioned before, it's a whole lifestyle change we need, live by the sea and structural parts rot out around 10 years anyway, engines outlive cars where I live, no-one will be buying 15 year old full electric cars.  Cars can be made cheaper if more people buy them more often, and to keep recycling the parts means less mining.  The impact then becomes one of power generation for processing plants, but they can use solar, wind and wave as renewable sources, wind in particular is improving quickly.  Plus we know there will be various charging solutions in 10 years time, even for people living in flats and terraces...new cars aren't just for the rich, look at how many are bought by Motability, they don't tend to be for rich people living in mansions!  People are getting too focussed on how an electric car can be identical to the petrol car that they're used to, but that's not the point at all.  We need a massive change, and it does look like Covid will kickstart that...

[StephenFord]

31 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

  We need a massive change, and it does look like Covid will kickstart that...

You're being very philosophical this morning Tom LOL You are right on Covid changing things, certainly, the 'morning car commute' for millions will never be the same again. My partner has been working from home for the duration, and has proved that her job is totally capable of being done without a traditional office. I remember in the 70s when computers were first introduced, that there was widespread belief that we would be 'paperless' in a decade - obviously that never materialised, but computers did change our lives.

Maybe you're right, the way we think about battery cars right now may never actually materialise, but they will accelerate change...

[iantt]

12 hours ago, StephenFord said:

A few pages back I highlighted this issue. That's great for the new owner, maybe even the 2nd one too, but if you buy cars in the lower echelons of it's life (I drive a 15 year old Mk2!), this effectively scraps battery cars straight into landfill. A replacement battery for a simple Prius can be around £5000, this puts it out of budget for the poor amongst us. Battery cars are for the rich, with a driveway to charge, and likely to remain so...

the kuga plug in, so not even full electric is £8000 currently. 

[iantt]

58 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

There's a lovely Tesla down my road...I get a great view of it as it keeps passing on the back of a low-loader every few weeks.  Honestly, how much can go wrong with a battery and a motor!?  

Cars don't go to landfill anymore.  They have to be (almost) completely recyclable now.  Batteries included.  As mentioned before, it's a whole lifestyle change we need, live by the sea and structural parts rot out around 10 years anyway, engines outlive cars where I live, no-one will be buying 15 year old full electric cars.  Cars can be made cheaper if more people buy them more often, and to keep recycling the parts means less mining.  The impact then becomes one of power generation for processing plants, but they can use solar, wind and wave as renewable sources, wind in particular is improving quickly.  Plus we know there will be various charging solutions in 10 years time, even for people living in flats and terraces...new cars aren't just for the rich, look at how many are bought by Motability, they don't tend to be for rich people living in mansions!  People are getting too focussed on how an electric car can be identical to the petrol car that they're used to, but that's not the point at all.  We need a massive change, and it does look like Covid will kickstart that...

tesla is down the bottom with landrover for reliability i saw someone mention. 

[iantt]

25 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

You're being very philosophical this morning Tom LOL You are right on Covid changing things, certainly, the 'morning car commute' for millions will never be the same again. My partner has been working from home for the duration, and has proved that her job is totally capable of being done without a traditional office. I remember in the 70s when computers were first introduced, that there was widespread belief that we would be 'paperless' in a decade - obviously that never materialised, but computers did change our lives.

Maybe you're right, the way we think about battery cars right now may never actually materialise, but they will accelerate change...

we are chopping down more trees than ever . since computers came into my industry the amount of paper has quadruppled. 

[StephenFord]

7 minutes ago, iantt said:

we are chopping down more trees than ever . since computers came into my industry the amount of paper has quadruppled. 

I've said it before, it's impossible to make predictions - especially about the future LOL