Focus 1.6 tdci DMF diagnosis

[cymro1973]

Hi

My 2007 car has been vibrating badly all weekend and smoking more. Checked all mountings and they look good, tonight bit more of noise and smoke and it just stopped. It wont turn over now. Does this sound like the flywheel i was expecting more noise if it was and why the excess smoke?  Surely the car would still start over if flywheel had failed. Any other ideas

many thanks

[cymro1973]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:17 PM, cymro1973 said:

Hi

My 2007 car has been vibrating badly all weekend and smoking more. Checked all mountings and they look good, tonight bit more of noise and smoke and it just stopped. It wont turn over now. Does this sound like the flywheel i was expecting more noise if it was and why the excess smoke?  Surely the car would still start over if flywheel had failed. Any other ideas

many thanks

Any help out there with this query please 

[TomsFocus]

Doesn't the starter run at all?

 

[cymro1973]

Sorry for the delay yes starter just clicks but not turn over and clutch pedal feels ok would expect that to be shot if flywheel had gone ?

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, cymro1973 said:

starter just clicks but not turn over

I can't see how a worn DMF would stop it cranking. First check for discharged battery by seeing if any lights (eg internal dome lamp) go really dim when trying to start. Then mark the crankshaft pulley or aux belt somewhere where you can see it with chalk or something equally harmless, keep igniton off (key can be in Aux position to free the steering lock), engage 5th gear and push the car back & forward to see if the engine turns at all. It may have seized.

If you can get a front wheel up easily, you can turn the raised wheel with a wheelbrace to do the same thing a bit easier. (chock the other front wheel well!)

I had a Sierra that did this, no odd noise or other symptoms, just stalled in the middle of the road doing a 3 point turn, would not crank, and by the time I pushed it to the kerb, the engine was locked absolutely solid. It was probably an oil blockage that caused crankshaft bearings to overheat & seize in that case.

[cymro1973]

ok will try that and get back to you thanks

[isetta]

I have heard of the iron filings from worn DMF jamming up the  starter motor as the magnets in the starter motor attract them. But that’s just from reading stuff, not first hand experience.  The only way to check that is to remove starter motor to see it

 

[cymro1973]

Tried the above tonight but car is on slight incline so unable to rock it in gear. Do you mean try turning the jacked up wheel while it's in gear ?

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, cymro1973 said:

Do you mean try turning the jacked up wheel while it's in gear ?

Yes, exactly. But be aware the other front wheel will try to turn (in the opposite direction) due to the differential. So it should be firmly chocked with bricks or similar so it can not move, as well as putting the handbrake on. Top gear (5th) will give apply the greatest torque to the engine crankshaft for a given force on the wheel. Try in both directions. A wheelbrace on a wheel nut should turn a free engine over well before you get to enough torque to loosen a normally tightened wheelnut.

[cymro1973]

Hi 

Right tried turning wheel tonight and it will move about quarter turn in 5th gear and gets to point where I slacken off wheel nuts. Thoughts on that ?

Also have another problem is the car full of diesel what's best way to empty it can't get pipe into tank from filler because of anti syphon valve. I can see small hole under seat where I guess fuel sender connection are is that a option if I make the hole bigger somehow. Any other ideas?

[Tdci-Peter]

22 hours ago, cymro1973 said:

tried turning wheel tonight and it will move about quarter turn in 5th gear and gets to point where I slacken off wheel nuts. Thoughts on that ?

Also have another problem is the car full of diesel what's best way to empty it

Put a chalk mark or bit of tape on the Aux belt where you can see it. Then try the wheel turning test (both ways) to see if there is any movement at all in the crankshaft. The quarter turn on the wheel may just be the slack in the transmission. But all the symptoms are stacking up with a seized engine.

Oddly, just last week I had to drain out my tank, long story involving a fuel crisis, important journeys to do, tiredness and blind stupidity!

I also could not get a pipe fully down into the tank (even though I don't have the "easy fuel" system). I used the fuel return pipe in the engine bay, just disconnected it from the junction near the fuel pump and syphoned from that. As you are not worried about about re-starting the engine, you can also do it from the fuel feed pipe to the fuel filter, which may be easier to get at on the 1.6. I did not want air getting into the feed lines as it can be a pain to bleed them and get the engine started again. I found a piece of plastic pipe which was a good fit up inside the fitting on the end of the pipe, and used a basic primer bulb to start the syphon. It was slow, but got it all out once I fixed the leaks in my syphon pipes. My car was also on a slight slope, front end down, so I could put the fuel container below the tank level quite easily.

 

[cymro1973]

On 10/14/2021 at 5:29 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

Put a chalk mark or bit of tape on the Aux belt where you can see it. Then try the wheel turning test (both ways) to see if there is any movement at all in the crankshaft. The quarter turn on the wheel may just be the slack in the transmission. But all the symptoms are stacking up with a seized engine.

Oddly, just last week I had to drain out my tank, long story involving a fuel crisis, important journeys to do, tiredness and blind stupidity!

I also could not get a pipe fully down into the tank (even though I don't have the "easy fuel" system). I used the fuel return pipe in the engine bay, just disconnected it from the junction near the fuel pump and syphoned from that. As you are not worried about about re-starting the engine, you can also do it from the fuel feed pipe to the fuel filter, which may be easier to get at on the 1.6. I did not want air getting into the feed lines as it can be a pain to bleed them and get the engine started again. I found a piece of plastic pipe which was a good fit up inside the fitting on the end of the pipe, and used a basic primer bulb to start the syphon. It was slow, but got it all out once I fixed the leaks in my syphon pipes. My car was also on a slight slope, front end down, so I could put the fuel container below the tank level quite easily.

 

Thanks which one the fuel fed pipe on filter or is it obvious. ? 

When I tried turning wheel saw no movement on belt how much would you expect 

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, cymro1973 said:

When I tried turning wheel saw no movement on belt how much would you expect 

Turning one driven wheel with the other one not moving will give about 1.2 revs on the crankshaft for 1 rev on the wheel, in 5th gear. Not far off 1:1, so a quarter turn on the wheel (after taking up the slack in the transmission) would be several inches of movement on the belt. There is normally quite an appreciable amount of slack in the transmission (including DMF), so the quarter turn you are getting at the wheel is probably just that.

Just as an afterthought, it might be worth dropping off the starter motor if you can get to it. It is just possible the motor has jammed up with its teeth engaged in the starter ring on the flywheel. I have not heard of this happening, but it might be a good idea to rule it out before scrapping the car!

2 hours ago, cymro1973 said:

Thanks which one the fuel fed pipe on filter or is it obvious. ?

According to Haynes (only about 97% right!!), the filter inlet (feed from the tank) is the one nearer the centre of the filter, into the plastic lump. That is the opposite to what I would have guessed, most round filters have the outlet in the middle. But in your case it is not critical, air in the system is the least of your worries, sad to say!

[cymro1973]

Ok thanks can't really get access easily to disengage starter  so nothing more I can check ?

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, cymro1973 said:

Ok thanks can't really get access easily to disengage starter  so nothing more I can check ?

It is not a likely possibility for a starter to do that, the starter pinion will normally spring away from the flywheel, freeing the engine even if the armature did jam.

When the engine in my Sierra seized, I was able to get a large spanner on the nut on the crankshaft pulley, and directly feel that there was absolutely no movement in the crankshaft at all, it was like it was welded in place, which, in a way, it probably was. But access on a Sierra is much easier than on a modern transverse engine car. It is low down between the engine and the body front extensions on the driver's side, with a rather narrow gap.

I would feel happier myself if the fault was confirmed by a local mechanic or expert, I worry that I have missed something! But I can't think what.

 

[Pythagorus]

Hi You might have added 'diesel'to My 2007 car has been vibrating badly' Concentrate on the

pre-'no start' fault t could be poor quality diesel, water in the diesel, a 'blown' piston or cylinders 

choked with water...which I think the most likely looking at the fault. One water-filled  cylinder

with valves closed could be stopping engine rotation. Other thing is it could be siezed..

 

now... starter clicks but doesn't turn...solenoid is moving...quite possibly not far enough. There

has been sensible suggestion about battery charge...you can get an idea by turning on headlights

at night and seeing if the dim dramatically and not recover when you crank with lights-on. The

starter could have one or more worn brushes , crook commutator, crook solenoid.

 

Starter jammed in housing (stator) would be my last thought...possible if armature locked to frame

though collapsed bush or bushes but the toothed gear slides along the shaft....armature locked

would not stop the gear returning from the flywheel ring gear. 

 

As there is no engine block reaction It's  more likely the starter is not engaging with flywheel 

through a battery/starter fault...remember original issue has nothing to do with the starter...nor have

you mentioned earlier starting issues.......diesels don't need batteries once started 

other than stop-solenoid.

 

As diesel owners seem neurotic about turning motor off when car/van/truck stationary your starter

may have had less use than a petrol car. Of course if glow plugs tere but not used or  crook...the

starter could have received abuse.. Pull the injectors...try to crank...if not cranking with good battery

pull starter and have tested by auto-electrican against a load.

 

Have fuel tested for water or lousy diesel.Is the sump oil contaminated (whitish). Is your coolant down?...

If cylinders have produced white smoke and its coolant....the level will be down.

 

Have compression test.

 

Voila

[cymro1973]

Thanks for all that lot of suggestions don't think it was battery issue as never given problems before gets long journeys. Thing is it was in bad shape and possibly this year was it's last MOT . Because of where it is difficult to do much work on it so probably scrap now.  I have pumped diesel out now from tank does it matter that I have some  debris in diesel as these will surely be taken out by filter of the car I'm putting it in? Or is it better to filter it before adding to vehicle. ? 

[Tdci-Peter]

18 hours ago, cymro1973 said:

does it matter that I have some  debris in diesel as these will surely be taken out by filter of the car I'm putting it in? Or is it better to filter it before adding to vehicle. ?

Trying to filter fuel manually is slow & messy work. I would decant some of it into a clear jug, & let it settle, then pour the clear fuel into the car tank. Any significant debris, or any water, will settle to the bottom, and can, with care, be left in the jug.

If the jug is clear, maybe transfer most of the fuel into the car tank directly, but try not to stir it up too much, and use the jug method for the last couple of litres.

The car filter will remove any small debris that gets in, I am sure some often gets in when at a filling station anyway. But you don't want masses of it, and especially you don't want water. That can sit in the bottom of a car tank and cause biological growth to happen.

[cymro1973]

There is only  few black specks of debris in there not sure if it was in containers already or from the tank so I should see any water as different colour at bottom of containers ? Hadn't thought there would be any water drawn from the tank though 

Thanks for the other help regarding the vibration issue shame I could not definitely find out what the issue was but sounds more likely it was not worth repairing 

[Tdci-Peter]

42 minutes ago, cymro1973 said:

I should see any water as different colour at bottom of containers

It is more the boundary(s) that will be visible, they bend & reflect light. Water droplets will tend to cluster at the bottom, merging a bit like small soap bubbles, and very slowly joining to make a bigger water drop. It would need a lot of water for the colour to be clearly different.