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06 Fiesta 1.6TDCI Starting Issue


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10 minutes ago, auldreekie said:

If you can't get it started it will fail the mot. 

Elementary my dear Watson

(but the emissions will be Ok)

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2 hours ago, auldreekie said:

If you can't get it started it will fail the mot. 

As I said above, once started it will start perfectly for new few hours so the MOT will be fine assuming everything else passes which I don't really have confidence it will to be honest.

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Hi again everyone!

As one last ditch attempt we fitted a new Crankshaft Position Sensor today just to rule out everything but the flywheel. While under the car we took a video of the flywheel and it does have a little bit of wear and marking from what I'm guessing is the starter motor grinding against it. However without fail the starter motor will in fact turn the flywheel every time but then stop just as it feels like the engine is about to go. Even though the flywheel is slightly worn and scraped up to me it doesn't look bad enough to stop the starter gripping it, and as I said above without fail it will initially grip the flywheel teeth then just suddenly let go and continue turning like crazy. (See video below).

I've discovered if I put the in first gear and turn the key, then if I dump the clutch just as it pulls forward the car will start.

It is almost as if the starter motor pulls out early (Excuse the pun) if that's even possible! Maybe the solenoid thinks the car has started when in fact it hasn't? Someone will have to explain to me how the process actually works.

Here is the video please can someone more qualified than me tell me what is going on with this thing?! 

 

I know I am dragging this issue out and people will probably say just replace the flywheel but just humour me and give me your opinion based on this video.

Thank you everyone!

Shane.

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The PCM knows the engine is running by the crank rotations, measured by the crank sensor.  It'll pull out at a certain RPM* but I don't know the exact speed.

(*Only for modern cars...  On old cars the starter would stay engaged for as long as you held the key in start position.)

Have you checked the main earth cable from the gearbox?  If that's only hanging by a few threads it may not be able to sustain the huge current that the starter pulls.  

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9 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The PCM knows the engine is running by the crank rotations, measured by the crank sensor.  It'll pull out at a certain RPM* but I don't know the exact speed.

(*Only for modern cars...  On old cars the starter would stay engaged for as long as you held the key in start position.)

Have you checked the main earth cable from the gearbox?  If that's only hanging by a few threads it may not be able to sustain the huge current that the starter pulls.  

I will re-check the ground tomorrow, we have just replaced the crank sensor today as for a separate issue the car was taken to a garage and a scan revealed a crank sensor issue. As it is related to starting the car I've changed it. Would the new sensor work automatically or would it need so time for the ECU to re-learn that it has a working one now? 

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1 minute ago, DA.MAIKER said:

I will re-check the ground tomorrow, we have just replaced the crank sensor today as for a separate issue the car was taken to a garage and a scan revealed a crank sensor issue. As it is related to starting the car I've changed it. Would the new sensor work automatically or would it need so time for the ECU to re-learn that it has a working one now? 

New crank sensor will work immediately, there's no adaption for the PCM to learn with those. 

As long as it's the right size, and in the correct place (they only work across a very small air gap) then it'll be good.

 

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3 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

New crank sensor will work immediately, there's no adaption for the PCM to learn with those. 

As long as it's the right size, and in the correct place (they only work across a very small air gap) then it'll be good.

 

Yeah identical shape and size, and has locator sleeve on it so defiantly in the right place! So looking at the video you would be more inclined to say a grounding issue than an issue lining up with the flywheel?

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mmmmmmmmmmm.......................................................

In short, I admit, I don't know !!

The sound of the starter engaging with the ring gear sounds right. With out being there to turn the key myself it is difficult to judge if the key is being released from the start position or if the starter motor is disengaging itself.

Your car has what is know as a 'pre-engaged' starter motor. trying to keep this a simple as possible, when you turn the key, power is sent from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid which is on the side of the starter motor. The solenoid is just an electromagnet which does two operations. Firstly it moves the end of the starter motor forward to engage the teeth with the ring gear, and at virtually the same time it then closes some very heavy duty contacts to apply full current to the starter motor, which then begins to rotate and start the engine.

On older models (possibly yours) as long as the key is held in the start position then power is supplied to the solenoid which in turn keeps the starter engaged and also the power to the motor. New models ( and this indeed could be yours) the start signal from the ignition switch to the solenoid goes via the PCM which monitors the engine RPM.

Once the engine turnover speed exceeds that of the starter motor then the PCM knows that the engine has started and it stops the supply to the solenoid, which drops out disconnecting the supply to the starter motor which then disengages from the ring gear.

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2 minutes ago, unofix said:

mmmmmmmmmmm.......................................................

In short, I admit, I don't know !!

The sound of the starter engaging with the ring gear sounds right. With out being there to turn the key myself it is difficult to judge if the key is being released from the start position or if the starter motor is disengaging itself.

Your car has what is know as a 'pre-engaged' starter motor. trying to keep this a simple as possible, when you turn the key, power is sent from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid which is on the side of the starter motor. The solenoid is just an electromagnet which does two operations. Firstly it moves the end of the starter motor forward to engage the teeth with the ring gear, and at virtually the same time it then closes some very heavy duty contacts to apply full current to the starter motor, which then begins to rotate and start the engine.

On older models (possibly yours) as long as the key is held in the start position then power is supplied to the solenoid which in turn keeps the starter engaged and also the power to the motor. New models ( and this indeed be yours) the start signal from the ignition switch to the solenoid goes via the PCM which monitors the engine RPM.

Once the engine turnover speed exceeds that of the starter motor then the PCM knows that the engine has started and it stops the supply to the solenoid, which drops out disconnecting the supply to the started motor which then disengages from the ring gear.

Thank you for that! This issue really has me stumped! Like I say it is almost like the car thinks it has started when in reality it could do with perhaps 0.5-1 more seconds worth of the starter motor cranking.

I literally have no idea where to go from here!

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Have you used FORScan (NOT a generic code reader) to check for any possible DTC's especially with PCM ?

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1 minute ago, unofix said:

Have you used FORScan (NOT a generic code reader) to check for any possible DTC's especially with PCM ?

Funnily enough we were debating buying a cable to use with FORScan and see if anything was a miss. Trouble is it is getting to the point where a lot of money is being spent and it is getting wasted and I'm back at square one. Would you defiantly recommend giving FORScan a go as we have never use it before?

And so do you think this is more related to the electrical side now as opposed to the flywheel being slightly damaged? I know you can't be 100% sure as you're not here to see and test it yourself but a point in the right direction would help me save a lot of money!

Thank you everyone so far! You have all been great!

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Hi Shane, firstly I would very highly recommend FORScan, it is as close as you will get to Ford dealer software. Many Ford technicians actually prefer to use it rather that Ford's own. Of course there are somethings it can't do but for 95% of things it works easily. The free version does most stuff but not anything to do with the PATS security system and a few other items. If you can afford it, then I would buy the FORScan 1 year licence which I think is still £12.32.

There is an option of two leads to use. Either the 'ELM327 (modified)' or the new 'vLinker FS' they will both work on your car, but the new vLinker FS is more future proof and so will at least do cars up to 2023 and probably beyond.

The real difference is the cost. Only buy the real items, the others on eBay can be hit or miss.

FORScan: https://forscan.org/download.html

ELM327 (modified) £19.95: https://tunnelrat-electronics.fwscart.com/USB_Modified_with_switch_ELM327/p4541936_17045457.aspx

vLinker FS £36.99: https://www.bmdiag.co.uk/forscan-diagnostic-cable-for-ford-vgate-vlinker-fs

OR

vLinker FS £34.99 (Amazon): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-vLinker-Adapter-FORScan-MS-CAN/dp/B0952P4MLP/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2057L4LMTN4AU&keywords=vLinker+FS&qid=1656188550&sprefix=vlinker+fs%2Caps%2C296&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMDdPVFJVREM3TUVMJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDIwOTAxMkxKWE1SUk4zRE45NiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODU1NjI5M1JKNjc1WkJIR1BFTyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

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12 minutes ago, unofix said:

Hi Shane, firstly I would very highly recommend FORScan, it is as close as you will get to Ford dealer software. Many Ford technicians actually prefer to use it rather that Ford's own. Of course there are somethings it can't do but for 95% of things it works easily. The free version does most stuff but not anything to do with the PATS security system and a few other items. If you can afford it, then I would buy the FORScan 1 year licence which I think is still £12.32.

There is an option of two leads to use. Either the 'ELM327 (modified)' or the new 'vLinker FS' they will both work on your car, but the new vLinker FS is more future proof and so will at least do cars up to 2023 and probably beyond.

The real difference is the cost. Only buy the real items, the others on eBay can be hit or miss.

FORScan: https://forscan.org/download.html

ELM327 (modified) £19.95: https://tunnelrat-electronics.fwscart.com/USB_Modified_with_switch_ELM327/p4541936_17045457.aspx

vLinker FS £36.99: https://www.bmdiag.co.uk/forscan-diagnostic-cable-for-ford-vgate-vlinker-fs

OR

vLinker FS £34.99 (Amazon): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-vLinker-Adapter-FORScan-MS-CAN/dp/B0952P4MLP/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2057L4LMTN4AU&keywords=vLinker+FS&qid=1656188550&sprefix=vlinker+fs%2Caps%2C296&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMDdPVFJVREM3TUVMJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDIwOTAxMkxKWE1SUk4zRE45NiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODU1NjI5M1JKNjc1WkJIR1BFTyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Thank you for all this information!

I guess I will have to debate whether another £50ish is worth it, as potentially knowing what the issue is doesn't necessarily mean it will be an easy or cheap fix! I will get back to everyone with my decision and if I do get it, I will hopefully on Monday post some logs and error codes!

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If you do that test that you did in the video again try painting or marking the Flywheel to see if it stops in the same position all the time. Looking at the marks on the Flywheel that are there just now it does look like it stops in almost the same position all the time, hard to tell without marking it.

If it does stop in the same position then it suggests that it is something physically jamming, either in the Engine or Gearbox/Clutch assembly. The Gearbox internals still turn when the car is not in gear and too much End Float on the Crankshaft can have a knock on effect with the Gearbox/Clutch as well as the Crankshaft sensor.

Try starting it with the Handbrake off but not in gear to see if the car moves or not if it is safe to do so.   

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1 hour ago, Tizer said:

If you do that test that you did in the video again try painting or marking the Flywheel to see if it stops in the same position all the time. Looking at the marks on the Flywheel that are there just now it does look like it stops in almost the same position all the time, hard to tell without marking it.

If it does stop in the same position then it suggests that it is something physically jamming, either in the Engine or Gearbox/Clutch assembly. The Gearbox internals still turn when the car is not in gear and too much End Float on the Crankshaft can have a knock on effect with the Gearbox/Clutch as well as the Crankshaft sensor.

Try starting it with the Handbrake off but not in gear to see if the car moves or not if it is safe to do so.   

Hi,

Thank you for your comment, I have tried many different scenarios with starting the car including starting it out of gear with the handbrake off and I haven't felt it move or anything like that. I have to agree with you that the flywheel is possibly stopping in roughly the same position every time. But like you say next time we are under there we will try marking it. But what could possibly be causing it to stop/jam like that? I have even tried pressing the clutch while starting which to my knowledge would remove the gearbox completely from the equation? Leaving something in the engine I guess but what?

It has had fresh oil and all the filters including fuel done in the last month. A new turbo in the last 2 months. Unfortunately I was sold a basically dead car as I've only owned it for 4 months, bought for £1195 :@. The person who sold it to me is a dealer but didn't sell through his name or business claiming it was his wife's. We approached him about all the issues and he said "Sorry it's too late not my problem."

This is a very deep rabbit hole indeed...

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12 hours ago, DA.MAIKER said:

Yeah identical shape and size, and has locator sleeve on it so defiantly in the right place! So looking at the video you would be more inclined to say a grounding issue than an issue lining up with the flywheel?

As with Unofix, I don't know either! :laugh:   Now that Tizer has mentioned it seems to stop in the same place every other time, that doesn't seem like a coincidence.  I'm almost certain that the 1.6 TDCI is new enough for the starter to be controlled by the PCM though.

If you're still getting a crank sensor fault code, that could potentially be caused by a wiring issue, or damage to the sensor ring that the crank sensor takes it's input from.  The sensor ring on these is on the face of the cambelt pulley, so not an easy part to inspect, let alone change, unfortunately. 

See the source image

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Watched your video clip, what caused these scratches on the side of the ring gear? 

Also looks as if some of the cogs on the ring gear are worn. At 142000 miles there is going to be wear. If a new clutch has been fitted at some point perhaps a screw up job has been done. 

Maybe ring gear has become slightly warped hence the scratches on the side of the cogs. By the way the ring gear is not stopping at the same position watching the scratches. Mark it with chalk to be clear. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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A further thought. Youtube allows you to slow the video to 1/4 speed but you must be able to view the original even slower, maybe frame by frame. It will cost you nothing to have a close look at the slowed down version to see if it throws any light on things.

The Starter motor, and specifically the Pre-engagement mechanism would be my first thought.  If the Engine/Drivetrain is jamming then I'm not sure what is causing it. A lot of problems in life are a combination of small things rather than just the one thing.

I'm sure these cars had Duel Mass Flywheels. It may have been replaced with either another one or a Solid Flywheel conversion. If so then it may not have been bolted down correctly, some of the bolts may have become loose or it may have been a poor quality part or one of the teeth may be worn. Any of the above combined with a Engine tight spot or too much Crankshaft End Float could in combination cause your problems when centrifugal force is at a set amount. Only a thought and might be wildly out.

Pressing the Clutch should remove the Gearbox from the equation if it is working properly and is something that is best done anyway to make starting easier anyway.

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