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2013 1.6tdci wouldn’t start?!


Thom90
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Very strange episode on the new to me mondeo today. Took it for its first long run, 100miles down the A1. Drove perfectly and started no issues from -3degrees this morning. After a 3 hour sit, it again started straight away as we drove for 30minutes elsewhere. Whilst at a friends house it sat for another 2 hours and when we got back in it simply wouldnt start - no electrics had been left on as far as we can identify.

I had perhaps turned the key too quickly, not allowing the usual glow plug light to go out however I was met with no life at all - I would expect trying to start too quickly to result in a bit of turning over and a smoky puff, not nothing at all!

Symptoms:

all electrics working, no dash lights showing. Glow plug light did not appear to be present but I may have missed it on the first attempt. Turning the key I could hear the relay from the glovebox area activate but nothing from the starter at all. Tried rocking the car in gear in case starter was stuck, tried starting in and out of gear with no success (no starter at all). Car has 160k mikes but good service history. Unknown battery age.

rolled down a nearby hill (very lucky parking spot to breakdown) and bumped it in fourth into life. Drove for 2.5hours home without issue but did not let engine turn off.

I did wonder if this could be one of a few things:

1) immobiliser of low key battery - but then surely I couldnt bump it?

2) poor car battery - but why would it have started from sub zero so well this morning?

3) starter issue (solenoid?) - I’m guessing simply as it showed no life.

4) glow plugs? Doubt it as again it started fine this morning.

any thoughts guys? I’ll plug it in on forscan tomorrow and look for any codes

 

thanks in advance!

 

thom

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And bizarrely in order to tempt fate I’ve just popped to the shops. Car started fine on my driveway but then wouldnt start 1 mile later. Rolled the car forward with clutch down for a couple meters, tried starting again and came to life with no hesitation - can’t fathom this one?

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The most probable fault is to do with the starter solenoid.

I know this is going to be a pain to check but you need to check the ignition starter control wire to the solenoid (small wire) and make sure it has a good connection they often corrode.  

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Thanks once again mate - presumably you mean the wiring at the starter itself? I’m a I’ll building familiarity with these cars and can’t say I’ve looked for/at the starter yet! Is there a specific colour wire I should look out for? 
 

thanks in advance!

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there will only be two wires on the starter solenoid. One quite a thick cable (thicker than a pencil) which is the main power from the battery, and one much smaller wire, could be any colour. It is the wire that energies the solenoid when you press start. 

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thanks again mate, I’ve tried having a look this morning and it appears completely inaccessible from above - have you any advice in accessing before I give it to a garage? Looks like EGR would need removing but this doesn’t look straightforward in itself as I can’t locate any major securing bolts for that yet!

again it starts and starts and starts time after time from cold on my driveway but obviously I’m reluctant to travel in it presently!

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Just for info, these won't attempt to start in cold temps unless they've had a long enough glowplug run first.  It's an emissions reduction thing.

If you just keep the clutch down (no need to keep start button held/key turned), it will fire into life on it's own once the plugs are done.

However, if this is the case here, you should see the glowplug light and a warning on the dash screen about preheating.  (Can't remember exact wording).

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Hello Tomsfocus,

the strange thing is engine temperature doesn’t seem to affect the starting - hot or cold I’ve experienced the same issue.

 

I should also add I’ve done repeated scans this morning without identifying any codes.

I also monitored the starter and solenoid via fore scan and witnessed normal performance (but of course I would because it started - typically!)

it’s apparently impossibly to artificially replicate the symptoms

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Intermittent issues like this are definitely frustrating!

If you did want to check or change the starter, it's best done from underneath on these.  Still not easy to access though as the driveshaft is in the way.

If it's not the starter and there are no other fault codes, the only thing I'd suspect is a loose or damaged battery cable/terminal.  I would have expected to see some low voltage codes if that was the case, but it may be 'hanging by a thread', good enough for sensors etc, just not able to move the large amount of current that the starter takes.

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Thanks mate, 

 

don’t get me wrong - I’m not a mechanic but fairly savvy and I would have expected something more obvious such as a battery terminal or lead but the fact it’s so specifically isolated to the starter means I should probably get underneath and have a look - unfortunately I don’t have the time (or ramps) so will pop it into my local garage. It needs an injector seal too so will get that done at the same time

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We’ll after a good couple hours investigating - I achieved nothing. I can’t reasonably access the starter at home. What’s worse is it will simply not start at all now - starter solenoid clicks with the turn of the key but nothing more.

im thinking the starter is goosed - would we agree?

going to get the AA out to see if they can get it going and drive it down the garage for tomorrow, if not they can recover it for me!

 

also when feeling around, the underside of the oil seems to have quite a bit of oil around it *eye roll* - joys of high mileage vehicles.

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3 hours ago, Thom90 said:

What’s worse is it will simply not start at all now - starter solenoid clicks with the turn of the key but nothing more.

You might not think it, but that actually is an excellent result !!

On the probability scale I'd say it's a 9/10 that the starter motor itself has failed, or there is a fault with the contacts on the solenoid. Either way it doesn't matter as they are replaced as a complete unit.

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Admittedly, my thoughts too - and it would explain why no fault codes are showing also I suppose.

 

I live graphed the two ‘starter’ options on Forscan yesterday which showed normal operation up to the solenoid but obviously nothing is measurable beyond this point.

I can’t say I’ve experienced such for many years since owning a motorcycle but would it likely be the brushes in the starter have worn 🤔 I appreciate it’s a replacement unit regardless but I am curious and at 160k miles I’d assume this is it

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49 minutes ago, Thom90 said:

but would it likely be the brushes in the starter have worn

The failure could be due to many things. If the car has been started many times during it's 160K miles then worn brushes could be a factor. The failures I've seen of this type has been the flexible cable between the solenoid output and the starter motor input.

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Andddddd… I’m back.

garage failed to get the car to errrr… not start! Basically it started faultlessly for them every time they tried. I’m not sure if they e had the starter off the car or ‘bench tested’ it was high I doubt as in their mind it was working fine…

so I’m buying some ramps and going to do it myself 🙄

I’m going to pull the starter (assuming this is easy enough once underneath) and check the leads and I think I’ll just swap a new starter straight in… surely it can’t be anything else?!

 

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 I’ve ordered a new starter - eBay had a 20% off coupon so £90 for a refurbished starter doesn’t seem too bad.

will get the car up on stands when it arrives and get it swapped in, checking the cable from the battery to starter too when I’m in there. I’ll go over the main earth points on the chassis and clean/copper grease these too. If at that point I’ve still got issues, it’s time for an auto electrician as it’s beyond me at that point (fingers crossed!)

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3 minutes ago, Thom90 said:

If at that point I’ve still got issues, it’s time for an auto electrician as it’s beyond me at that point (fingers crossed!)

Keep us posted as to how you get on 👍

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Well, I got under the car last night to try and assess what was going on and immediately noticed the starter terminals were dry and crusty - so to conclude I would say this was the fault. 
 

I did try cleaning them up and whilst I’m he car was starting fine up until I touched it, cleaning the terminals and spraying with silicone spray caused the starter to fail to engage with the flywheel 🤯 i couldn’t really understand this but armed with my new starter thought I’d simply be hack the new one on…

 

this is a real pain in the ***** operation due to one incredibly fiddly bolt but once removed and refitted the new starter is a dream and engages the engine so much more crisply. Time will tell if this was the issue but 400 miles today says it’s working smoothly 🤞 

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Update: no issues since replacing starter, even stop/start is a pleasure to use without the anxiety of will it:won’t it.

thanks to those that helped steer my thought process and advise on this one!

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Good to know that normality has been restored 😀

 

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