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2010 SMAX 2.0tdci auto wont turn over


Villadam
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Drove to work the other morning, no issues finish work 7 hours later, battery is dead. Tried the jump leads from another diesel car, all lights come on but won't turn over. Removed the battery brought it back home fully charged fit back in and wouldn't turn over. Within 15-20 mins low battery came up again. Called RAC they fitted new battery, again 15-20 mins drained the new battery flat. RAC checked it all over nothing, relays, starter and couldn't get it to turn over ended up recovering back home. Can't bump it due to being auto. We're all stumped, anyone had anything similar or any idea's what to try? Ask a few garages but labour costs for fault finding is going to be expensive so checking here before we do anything.

 

Another thing we have noticed when there is some charge I can open the doors with the remote but it wont lock them, this has never happened before?

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Sounds like the alternator rectifier pack has failed and gone short-circuit.

First completely disconnect the battery.

Remove the heavy main cable (normally red) from the alternator fastened with 10mm nut. Make sure that you insulate the disconnected cable with electricians tape.

Reconnect a fully charged battery.

Will the car now start and engine run as normal ?

You will have the battery charge warning light on, but that is normal when the alternator is disconnected.

 

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I’ve tried that this morning after charging the battery all night and still won’t turn over. 
 

Any other ideas, I’ve checked every fuse engine bay inside car and in the boot and every relay and they all seem good. 
 

Pretty stumped what could be stopping it from turning over now, doesn’t even attempt to turn over

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In gear inhibitor switch? - had it on an Opel once. Can’t see why it might drain the battery though.

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40-60 amp drain in 20 mins. Something would be getting pretty hot. Big spark connecting or disconnecting battery I would imagine.

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5 hours ago, RL123 said:

40-60 amp drain in 20 mins.

Well if we assume that it has a 68Ah battery (2.0 Diesel) and it runs the battery flat in 20 minutes, so the current draw would be 204 Amp to fully drain the battery in that time.

Giving the battery the benefit of the doubt and that it wasn't in perfect condition to start with, and that there was possibly a few amps still left when it was essentially dead, I estimate a continues current draw of 150 amp.

There are only two cables that connect to the battery that could carry that load for 20 minutes without the insulation melting and possibly a fire breaking out. Those are the main alternator cable, and the cable that goes to the starter solenoid. All other cables in the vehicle could not carry a load of 150 Amp for 20 minutes.

OP states they have carried out my recommendation to disconnect the main charge cable from the alternator.

So that leaves only the cable from the battery to the starter solenoid. Is this cable damaged ?

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29 minutes ago, unofix said:

So that leaves only the cable from the battery to the starter solenoid. Is this cable damaged ?

If it wasn't before then it will be now 😁 if that is the problem.

Seriously though if there is a Current draw of that amount then a cable will be hot to the touch. In the absence of a Clamp Meter I would use my fingertips and have a feel around, including both Fuse Boxes although if it was something that is fused I would expect the Fuse to blow.

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I have had a battery (years ago) that had an internal fault that was effectively disconnecting one terminal. Charged one minute, totally dead the next.

also had cheap aluminium jump leads that failed due to corrosion within a year. Now use good quality copper jump leads.

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On 2/21/2023 at 5:49 PM, unofix said:

Well if we assume that it has a 68Ah battery (2.0 Diesel) and it runs the battery flat in 20 minutes, so the current draw would be 204 Amp to fully drain the battery in that time.

Giving the battery the benefit of the doubt and that it wasn't in perfect condition to start with, and that there was possibly a few amps still left when it was essentially dead, I estimate a continues current draw of 150 amp.

There are only two cables that connect to the battery that could carry that load for 20 minutes without the insulation melting and possibly a fire breaking out. Those are the main alternator cable, and the cable that goes to the starter solenoid. All other cables in the vehicle could not carry a load of 150 Amp for 20 minutes.

OP states they have carried out my recommendation to disconnect the main charge cable from the alternator.

So that leaves only the cable from the battery to the starter solenoid. Is this cable damaged ?

We’ve stuck on a new battery ourselves just to rule that out and doesn’t seem to be draining the battery now but the issue is still won’t turn over. 
 

We’ve removed the starter and tested it and is fully working. Checked all the cables and no clear and obvious damage, checked with meter and showing current. Really stumped now with what else it could be if anyone has any ideas or similar

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Well personally I still suspect you have an issue with the alternator rectifier pack. Like I said in an earlier post. To run a healthy fully charged by battery flat in approximately 20 minutes would mean a fault that was drawing over 150Amp.

If you have ruled out any damage to the starter motor cable, and any damage to the main alternator charging cable then we are back to the beginning. Those are the only 2 cables that could carry 150Amp for 20 minutes without catching fire.

When you first connect up a fully charged battery (should be about 12.65V),  measure the voltage at the battery terminals after about 2 minutes. What does it read ?

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If after 2 minutes the battery voltage is still above 12.32V then you can move on to using FORScan to read the DTC's.

Being an automatic there are a few things which can prohibit the starter motor from operating. Using FORScan you will be able to see what start inhibits are active.

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3 hours ago, unofix said:

If after 2 minutes the battery voltage is still above 12.32V then you can move on to using FORScan to read the DTC's.

Being an automatic there are a few things which can prohibit the starter motor from operating. Using FORScan you will be able to see what start inhibits are active.

battery seems to have held charge. I’ve got forscan but never really used it, any ideas where I need to be looking it hasn’t thrown up an error codes. 

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Just been having another mess and I’ve had a think that the starters fine and battery. So I’ve bypassed the starter relay with the ignition on and the car started, the relay is good new and tested but it’s like I’ve bypassed the signal, can’t really try anything else tonight as it’s getting late but least I know the car can start anyone any idea what the cause could be from stopping it from starting on the button?

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1 hour ago, Villadam said:

Battery seems to have held charge.

Good 👍

1 hour ago, Villadam said:

any ideas where I need to be looking it hasn’t thrown up an error codes. 

That's quite surprising and just a bit of a disappointment. If FORScan is not showing any DTC's then that would seem to indicate that either whatever is inhibiting the operation of the starter is doing so by design and is not a fault. Or the fault is such that it mimics the normal  inhibit.

Mounted directly on the side of the Starter Motor is the starter solenoid. It has the big main supply cable connected to it, and a much smaller single solenoid activation wire. If you remove the small wire and connect a length of wire to the solenoid activation terminal you will then be able to touch that wire on to the positive of the battery. If the solenoid is working correctly, and the engine earth straps are complete the starter motor will operate, even with the ignition off.

If you carry out the above test it will determine that the starter solenoid is working (or not working) and then it will be possible to work out the next course of action.

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Sounds from your posts you are not getting the signal to the relay to start. I know it is inhibited if not in P or/and N. Some autos also require the footbrake applied as well, not sure if Fords do.

there are some (unswitched or cheap ) elm327 interfaces that cannot read all or some dtcs. Should use ones recommended by Forscan.

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