Random stalls (shut down on highway)

[alexr12]

 So the last few weeks I’ve had a few mishaps with my 2006 1.6tdci Ford focus. It first happened when I was on the highway. I was going uphill overtaking some lorries and I suddenly felt the car stop pulling. I looked at my gauge and everything looked normal, I was just cruising with the speed accumulated and the engine was rotating at 2k decreasing. When rpms reached 1.5k the rpm needle dropped and the lights came on.
 

I cruised until I was able to pull on the the hard shoulder (it was a pretty scary experience since there were some lorries behind me and cars flying by) and had a look and the engine bay. I noticed the coolant tank was completely empty, I can’t remember why but I thought checking the oil as well, which turned out to be empty as well. Despite this, I tried restarting the car and It ran just fine. (I was only able to restart after a few minutes). 
 

Since I didn’t have any other option I filled the coolant tank with some water I had left over for the trip, and some oil that I kept from my last oil change. Then tried driving slowly to the next petrol station to get some more oil and coolant.

I filled everything up and continued home no problem (still careful, I was trying to not exceed 2k rpm) (no cel as well)

Then back in my town I continued driving the car fine, it’s not until i drove for longer (1 hour or so) that it stalled again. This time I waited 2 minutes and I was able to restart and pulled somewhere safer to check my liquids. This time everything was fine, just how it was when I last filled up so it didn’t stall because there was no oil or coolant (which I still can’t fathom where i lost it because there was nothing on the highway, just some oil on the left side of the engine bay but that’s there since I know the car) 

The recent weeks this didn’t happen but I didn’t drive the car continuously for a prolonged period of time either. I can’t seem to get the hang of what causes this and it makes me anxious taking the car out of town, which I probably won’t do from now on.

There is another thing I noticed (long before the stalling happened). The rpms seem to struggle and the engine is rough when I’m in neutral pressing the brake pedal, when I release the brake pedal completely however, they return back to normal, I don’t know if these 2 things could be connected. I was thinking of a boost leak, that could also cause the stalls?, but I can’t explain where the coolant and oil went? It’s just a big headache and I am thinking of just getting another car, I was curious maybe this could be just a small thing that’s causing this.
 

 

 

[alexr12]

2 minutes ago, alexr12 said:

The rpms seem to struggle and the engine is rough when I’m in neutral pressing the brake pedal, when I release the brake pedal completely however, they return back to normal, I don’t know if these 2 things could be connected.

By the way, for the engine to rough idle while breaking, you have to be braking in neutral from cruising, if you just press the brake pedal while stationary everything is normal.

[andypsp]

when did you last change the fuel filter and glo-plugs.

and before you noticed there was no oil or antifreeze in the car when did you last check it before that ?

[DaveT70]

Head gasket????

[alexr12]

2 hours ago, andypsp said:

when did you last change the fuel filter and glo-plugs.

and before you noticed there was no oil or antifreeze in the car when did you last check it before that ?

Hi andy thanks for replying.

glo plugs shouldn’t cause any problems, I’m sure they haven’t passed the 100.000miles mark (and shouldn’t they also trigger a check engine light?)

to be honest the fluids were checked months before that trip however that’s quite a big amount of liquid disappearing , especially the coolant, that shouldn’t really leak. As Dave mentioned that could be a head gasket. I think the mixture of oil and coolant made the oil not “stick” to the dipstick. Maybe, that would need a compression test.
 

one thing that I surpassed maintenance with was the fuel filter,  I chose to keep it longer because it’s quite an expensive part in these fords but I read on some forums that it shouldn’t really cause fuel starvation. However I will get that changed on my next oil change, see if thats the issue.

where I live public transport between cities and towns is pretty good and more affordable so I won’t really miss taking the car out of town for now. Thinking of getting a new car anyway definitely not any diesel Ford model, when it comes to reliability, they suck *****  

[alexr12]

1 hour ago, DaveT70 said:

Head gasket????

That’s what I thought as well, I should do a compression test for that but for now maybe I’ll get to see on my next oil change if the oil is mixed with the coolant (that’s if it didn’t burn or evaporate)

[RL123]

On that model/year Focus, it is advisable just to check the Fusebox/gem unit in front of the glove box. If they get wet, corrosion on the fuses or plugs into it can cause issues. If dry and clean , dry solder joints in the instrument cluster are a common issue.

Thumping the dash above the ip or wiggling the plug into it can exhibit this issue, relatively simple to remove the cluster.

These are quick checks I would do before looking for codes thro Forscan

[alanfp]

3 hours ago, alexr12 said:

I read on some forums that it shouldn’t really cause fuel starvation.

 Not saying you're wrong, but I am certainly surprised by this statement.

[TomsFocus]

4 hours ago, alexr12 said:

one thing that I surpassed maintenance with was the fuel filter,  I chose to keep it longer because it’s quite an expensive part in these fords but I read on some forums that it shouldn’t really cause fuel starvation. However I will get that changed on my next oil change, see if thats the issue.

As Alan suggested above, this is totally false.  In fact, a clogged fuel filter is one of the most common reasons for a stall or non-start on the 1.6 TDCI.  It's the petrol engine fuel filters that rarely clog up.

 

8 hours ago, alexr12 said:

By the way, for the engine to rough idle while breaking, you have to be braking in neutral from cruising, if you just press the brake pedal while stationary everything is normal.

This is actually totally normal.  I stalled mine a couple of times doing this.  (Just poor forward planning on my part!)  You really shouldn't be braking hard in neutral anyway though.

[RL123]

Surprised if a fuel filter can be clogged one minute and not the next. If it runs fine then occasionally throws a wobbler, Think the diagnostic trouble codes thro the OBD may help.

[alexr12]

So the engine finally gave up and is not starting anymore, luckily it shat the bed in my parking lot and I was able to push it into my parking space. I ve put the vehicle on a diagnoser and it shows the code “sensor reference circuit c low voltage” which is not that well documented on the internet but I understand it can be bought up by the EGR(which is new and should throw a code itself, which it didn’t) and the fuel filter. And since the fuel filter should’ve been changed a long time ago I will do it myself in the parking lot. Just ordered the part and I wish this will solve the problem.

there are also other codes on the tester if anyone wants to bat an eye and knows more, because the software used it’s not ForScan, it s some general testing thing. 

[alexr12]

Just now, alexr12 said:

So the engine finally gave up and is not starting anymore, luckily it shat the bed in my parking lot and I was able to push it into my parking space. I ve put the vehicle on a diagnoser and it shows the code “sensor reference circuit c low voltage” which is not that well documented on the internet but I understand it can be bought up by the EGR(which is new and should throw a code itself, which it didn’t) and the fuel filter. And since the fuel filter should’ve been changed a long time ago I will do it myself in the parking lot. Just ordered the part and I wish this will solve the problem.

there are also other codes on the tester if anyone wants to bat an eye and knows more, because the software used it’s not ForScan, it s some general testing thing. 

On another note I’ve also tried pulling fuel through the lines into a bottle using a hand pump, and it’s making a void ( fuel does come through eventually but still, I don’t think it’s supposed to make a void)

[alexr12]

And the coolant leak is a totally separate problem, it seems to be external though.

(maybe the water pump?)

[alexr12]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:31 PM, TomsFocus said:

This is actually totally normal.  I stalled mine a couple of times doing this.  (Just poor forward planning on my part!)  You really shouldn't be braking hard in neutral anyway though.

I understand, thanks for clearing it up, it used to be kinda scary seeing the rpms drop while in neutral though 😬. But i ve got accustomed to it. 

[TomsFocus]

Sounds like a lot of separate faults going on there!

I agree it's most likely the P0698 causing the non-start.  You may be able to test whether it's the EGR by simply unplugging the EGR plug for now.  As the EGR is new, did you reset the adaptions for it?

 

Regarding the other issues...  These were known for blowing turbo's in the early days, so I'd physically check the turbo.  Very simple, just pull off the intake pipe and poke the compressor wheel.  There will be a little up & down play, but it shouldn't be excessive, there shouldn't be any in and out play, and there shouldn't be enough movement to cause any score marks around the turbine housing.  If that's ok then I'd suggest you've got a boost leak somewhere.  Probably the solid metal boost pipe in front of the oil filter.  They crack around the brackets eventually.

Alternator issue could be the SmartCharge wire.  If you can unplug the SmartCharge plug for now, that should default to 'standard' charge rate.

To have faults on all of the pedals would suggest a loose plug in that area.  Don't suppose you have the super-rare optional adjustable pedal box?

Not sure what you mean by a void in the fuel system.  Are you definitely pulling fuel from the tank through the intake line?  Not pulling it back from the engine by mistake?

You'll have to give us some more info on the coolant leak.

[alexr12]

4 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

You may be able to test whether it's the EGR by simply unplugging the EGR plug for now.  As the EGR is new, did you reset the adaptions for it?

Hi Tom thanks for the reply. In an attempt to start the car a few weeks ago I tried to disconnect the egr and still no start. I ve also checked the turbo and it’s perfectly fine, I also hear it spooling like you would normally do so probably just a boost leak somewhere. ( there is a lot of oil on the turbo and around it as well I will get that checked out once I manage to start the car, on the left hand headlamp as well) I’ll try to change the fuel filter, I’ve ordered one online and it should come tomorrow.

4 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Alternator issue could be the SmartCharge wire.  If you can unplug the SmartCharge plug for now, that should default to 'standard' charge rate.

I will try that once i get the car rolling, i didn’t have any noticeable problems with the charging in itself. But I would prefer there not to be any errors.

 

4 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

To have faults on all of the pedals would suggest a loose plug in that area.  Don't suppose you have the super-rare optional adjustable pedal box?

I will actually have a look for this tonight, pretty interesting I haven’t thought about this, I was actually looking to buy the pedal sensors. And no I don’t have the rare adjustable pedal box(why would you really need something like this?😃)

 

4 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Not sure what you mean by a void in the fuel system.  Are you definitely pulling fuel from the tank through the intake line?  Not pulling it back from the engine by mistake?

I am not 100% that was the correct line but I am 60% sure  it was the right one (it’s not the first time I’m doing this but it was a long time ago). By void I mean that pressing the pump would make it stay stuck “sucked in”, (pressed in) I am not sure how to formulate, sorry, hope you understand. But I’m sure the hand pump should not get stuck. There was some fuel coming out after getting it unstuck and pressing again but still, I don’t think it should make a “void” in the hand pump.

 

As for the coolant leak, I didn’t really bother to look into it, but I’ve seen some puddled coolant aundeneath the pump, and underneath the car around the middle of the engine bay.

[TomsFocus]

10 minutes ago, alexr12 said:

I will actually have a look for this tonight, pretty interesting I haven’t thought about this, I was actually looking to buy the pedal sensors. And no I don’t have the rare adjustable pedal box(why would you really need something like this?😃)

I am not 100% that was the correct line but I am 60% sure  it was the right one (it’s not the first time I’m doing this but it was a long time ago). By void I mean that pressing the pump would make it stay stuck “sucked in”, (pressed in) I am not sure how to formulate, sorry, hope you understand. But I’m sure the hand pump should not get stuck. There was some fuel coming out after getting it unstuck and pressing again but still, I don’t think it should make a “void” in the hand pump.

As for the coolant leak, I didn’t really bother to look into it, but I’ve seen some puddled coolant aundeneath the pump, and underneath the car around the middle of the engine bay.

I guess adjustable pedals could be useful for very short drivers.  It's rare to see them in used Mk2s though, obviously not many people did feel the need for it!  

You're right, the hand pump shouldn't stay sucked in.  It's possible the one-way valve in your hand pump is failing if you've had it a while.  I had a similar issue with my brake bleeder recently, could barely get any fluid to come through, turned out the ball bearing in the valve had rusted and seized in place.  Bought a new valve and it was fine.  

If you've got a big enough coolant leak to cause puddles, that means there's going to be air inside the cooling system, allowing hot spots in the head which will ultimately blow the gasket and even crack or warp the head.  Obviously not the immediate concern with a non-starter but it's not something I'd just ignore.

[alexr12]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

If you've got a big enough coolant leak to cause puddles, that means there's going to be air inside the cooling system, allowing hot spots in the head which will ultimately blow the gasket and even crack or warp the head.  Obviously not the immediate concern with a non-starter but it's not something I'd just ignore.

 I understand, I will indeed get that in check. Tomorrow I should get my fuel filter, I will be coming back here to tell if that fixed this issue. I will also update here about the coolant leaks when I get the car into a properly equipped garage.  Tonight I will also look into the wiring.

[alexr12]

Small update, i have installled the new filter and this haven’t solved the no start, I properly installed the fuel filter, primed it, but to no good, and on the internet I am not able to find anything useful about the low voltage error. At this point I am at a dead end.

Edited May 10, 2023 by alexr12
Upload of the photos.

[RL123]

My approach would probably be on a mk2 focus , whack the dash to get an indication of possible failing solder joints within the cluster.check the Fusebox BCM for wet and corrosion(disconnecting the battery first.)

Assuming the battery voltage is ok, then I’d go the Forscan route to get all dtcs.

you may have done one or all of this but that would be my approach

Good luck

[alexr12]

8 minutes ago, RL123 said:

My approach would probably be on a mk2 focus , whack the dash to get an indication of possible failing solder joints within the cluster.check the Fusebox BCM for wet and corrosion(disconnecting the battery first.)

Assuming the battery voltage is ok, then I’d go the Forscan route to get all dtcs.

you may have done one or all of this but that would be my approach

Good luck

Thanks for the suggestion, I will check these as well.

[alexr12]

 I was able to check the timing sensor ( I disconnected it and tried starting the engine but to no good) I was also about to test the fuel pressure sensor, which with the help of TomsFocus I was able to locate but on this model it is a pain in the butt to get to so I gave up. I purchased one of these obd II testers for your mobile phone and it seems that besides the low circuit c voltage error I also get a “Fuel temperature sensor circuit A high input or voltage not sure which one it was, but I will post the photos of these here as well. I am not able to find the location of the fuel temperature sensor anywhere on the internet. I also talked to a mechanic and told me to change the fuel pump, which I doubt because he didn’t do any diagnostics he just told me this over the phone. I’d give the fuel temp sensor a try. Does anyone know where it is ? 🥲

Edited May 13, 2023 by alexr12
Image upload

[alexr12]

14 minutes ago, alexr12 said:

 I was able to check the timing sensor ( I disconnected it and tried starting the engine but to no good) I was also about to test the fuel pressure sensor, which with the help of TomsFocus I was able to locate but on this model it is a pain in the butt to get to so I gave up. I purchased one of these obd II testers for your mobile phone and it seems that besides the low circuit c voltage error I also get a “Fuel temperature sensor circuit A high input or voltage not sure which one it was, but I will post the photos of these here as well. I am not able to find the location of the fuel temperature sensor anywhere on the internet. I also talked to a mechanic and told me to change the fuel pump, which I doubt because he didn’t do any diagnostics he just told me this over the phone. I’d give the fuel temp sensor a try. Does anyone know where it is ? 🥲

Also, is this what I am looking for? The temp sensor? Because I think I saw it and it seems pretty accessible.

[TomsFocus]

There is a Forscan app for mobile, so it may be worth trying that with your adapter.  The generic OBD scanners may be missing specific Ford codes.

Fuel temp won't stop the engine starting so I'd ignore that one for now.  If you do want to find it, it's in the low pressure pipework.

[TomsFocus]

5 minutes ago, alexr12 said:

Also, is this what I am looking for? The temp sensor? Because I think I saw it and it seems pretty accessible.

Yes, that's it.