Wet Belt Issue

[Chris70]

Hi. I’m having a nightmare with my fiesta. The wet belt degraded causing damage to (amongst other parts) the fuel pump, vacuum pump and turbo charger. The cars done 65k and is 4.5yrs old. The service schedule says this should be changed at 10yrs or 150k. Ford or adamant that it’s not a known fault but I’ve spoken to people in the trade who say that it is. Ford have offered just 50% towards repair costs. I think they should be paying more (even if it’s out of warranty). 
 

Has anyone experienced similar? What happened/who paid?

 

thanks. 

[unofix]

51 minutes ago, Chris70 said:

Has anyone experienced similar? What happened/who paid?

Well a quick search of this forum would tell you that this is common,  and probably more than a couple of hundred threads on the issue.

Who paid ? Well in about 99% of the cases the customer paid. In a few cases Ford made a small contribution.

Since it is almost a certainty that you will end up with a bill well over £5000 if you go the Ford route you would be better to cut your losses and go the the PumaSpeed replacement route. It will still cost you around £3000 for a brand new fully fitted engine.

  https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Brand-New-Ford-Service-10-EcoBoost-Engine_18898.jsp

[rd457]

There are lots of threads about this you can read here if you use the search function. I recall reading about Ford similarly contributing to the cost in some cases, though their 50% offer did not actually cover 50% of the total overall costs.

It is definitely a common problem, however describing it as a "known fault" and trying to get Ford to pay out for it is problematic. My understanding is that if your vehicle was properly maintained per the specification detailed by Ford's engineers then the problem should not and most probably would not have occurred. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not accusing you of being a negligent owner, it's just that unfortunately instructions from Manufacturer engineers don't always get followed properly in the real world by garage mechanics. Your vehicle's manual will tell you to do engine oil changes with an oil meeting a very specific standard, however as I understand it, for cost reasons, many garages just buy generic oil in bulk and put it in everything they service. It is believed that it is either this - the wrong specification oil - and/or oil "flush" products, that are responsible for degrading wetbelts. So, should the blame lie with Ford's engineers for their expectations not meeting reality? Should blame lie with garages for using bulk generic oils to cut down costs? (Especially if it was not known for a while that it would end up causing damage to these new wetbelt designs, and some mechanics may still conceivably still be ignorant). Or does the blame lie with the owner for not double checking that the garage they take it to is going to use oil that matches the specification in the owner manual?

Another issue is that during covid a lot of cars have unexpectedly ended up sitting idle for long periods, which may exacerbate degradation.

If the belt has degraded then you're probably going to need a new engine since the rubber pieces can clog up the oil passages.

Good luck, but you're probably not going to be getting any more out of Ford that they've offered.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, Chris70 said:

What happened/who paid?

You don't mention the service history of the car? In the (very rare) cases where owners have got a contribution from Ford as Unofix mentions, Iirc it was on the basis of a full and proveable service history.

Presumably the contribution you've been offered (which is pretty good from what we've seen here) was on that basis.

 

[Eatonm112]

5 hours ago, Chris70 said:

Hi. I’m having a nightmare with my fiesta. The wet belt degraded causing damage to (amongst other parts) the fuel pump, vacuum pump and turbo charger. The cars done 65k and is 4.5yrs old. The service schedule says this should be changed at 10yrs or 150k. Ford or adamant that it’s not a known fault but I’ve spoken to people in the trade who say that it is. Ford have offered just 50% towards repair costs. I think they should be paying more (even if it’s out of warranty). 
 

Has anyone experienced similar? What happened/who paid?

 

thanks. 

Providing that you have followed Fords service schedule and have proof I would challenge this in the small claims court. (You dont need genuine Ford service history just as long as you have fitted parts that are of oem quality.)

If you do a search for 1.0 Ecoboost wet belt failure or similar you will get many forums show up all you will want to do is to print some off and present it as proof to the judge along with an engineers report stating what has gone wrong with the engine. 

[Aldridge Andy]

6 hours ago, Chris70 said:

Hi. I’m having a nightmare with my fiesta. The wet belt degraded causing damage to (amongst other parts) the fuel pump, vacuum pump and turbo charger. The cars done 65k and is 4.5yrs old. The service schedule says this should be changed at 10yrs or 150k. Ford or adamant that it’s not a known fault but I’ve spoken to people in the trade who say that it is. Ford have offered just 50% towards repair costs. I think they should be paying more (even if it’s out of warranty). 
 

Has anyone experienced similar? What happened/who paid?

 

thanks. 

Full Ford service history? I’d expect more than 50% contribution.

[alanfp]

12 minutes ago, Aldridge Andy said:

Full Ford service history? I’d expect more than 50% contribution.

Yup, but the OP doesn't say it's got a FFSH.

And on that note, do we know of any wet belt problems where the car DOES have a FFSH? Of the previous threads that I have read with interest, I don't remember any having failed with a FFSH. 

I would very much like to know the answer - I'm asking for a friend!

[unofix]

2 hours ago, alanfp said:

do we know of any wet belt problems where the car DOES have a FFSH?

I can only think of one if I remember correctly (but I may be wrong). It was a woman called Sarah and she got 50% contribution from Ford. That of course turned out to be a con as I recall. The way the job was priced was total cost £7300, Ford paid 50% of the 'cost to them' and she had to pay 50% at retail, or some such nonsense. She ended up paying around £4900 which is what just about everyone going to a Ford garage pays with or without a contribution.

I notice that the OP has checked back multiple times to read the answers that have been posted but makes no comment. Perhaps they're just in a stunned silence !! 🤔

[unofix]

On 6/23/2022 at 12:51 PM, Sarah46 said:

Well the offer is in. Ford have offered £2,247.00 towards the cost of a new engine ( which they quoted at £7,108.00 ). 

We rang to speak to our customer service rep - we have rejected the offer and asked for it to be reviewed and asked for a Manager to call us back as there is no breakdown as to how this figure is made up, and the rep knows absolutely nothing when you ask her a question. She just kept repeating that they look at servicing ( we have full Ford dealership services ) and warranty - the car is out of it's 3 years warranty, but is still well within the 60k mileage warranty. Can't speak to a Manager for 24hrs as they like to "review the case" before calling back ( what are the chances they call back tomorrow ??! ). And also she stated that the 100k mileage they put on the wet belt is just a "recommendation" and not a guarantee.

What she also told us is that it looks they have taken a 50/50 approach to it - except their cost is done at warranty rate and ours is done at full retail rate, so in essence it's not really 50/50.

So another trip to the dealership after work as am really ***** off now.  No idea really what we do from here, we can't afford the £4,861.00 to fix it, still paying for Finance and insurance and we are now 7 weeks down without a car. 

 

[rd457]

4 hours ago, Eatonm112 said:

Providing that you have followed Fords service schedule and have proof I would challenge this in the small claims court. (You dont need genuine Ford service history just as long as you have fitted parts that are of oem quality.)

As much as I sympathise with the owner over the bill they face, I think that you're failing to properly understand the situation, and doing as you suggest would just prove to be a complete waste of time and (more) money.

Vehicles don't just need replacement parts every now and again, they need replacement fluids also, and it's the fluids that are of most interest here. If the "proper" fluids - as specified by Ford - had been used then the problem almost certainly would not have occurred based upon what I've read about it. If it had you'd maybe then have a good claim, however otherwise, without having used the correct oil, (or if there is any possibility that a garage used a flush product), Ford's lawyer is simply going to point out in court that the engine failed because it wasn't maintained as they had clearly specified that it should be, thus the blame falls on the owner and/or the garages(s) that did the oil servicing, and so case inevitably lost.

Note that Ford garages, to the best of my knowledge, are a franchise, and thus are separate entities to Ford themselves. If a Ford garage used the wrong oil, then whether the garage or Ford themselves are responsible for this I expect would come down to the details of the franchise contract, but most likely would fall upon the garage owner.

I'm sorry but as much as I'd be very upset if I were in the same situation, the most reasonable way to view the fact that the vehicle happens to be more sensitive about correct oil than typical is that this is simply a design quirk not an actual fault. It can't be considered a fault if it works perfectly fine when you correctly follow the instructions. You can't reasonably expect to win a claim against the manufacturer on the basis that the vehicle proved to not be as tolerant as most vehicles seem to be to use of oils not specified as compatible by the manufacturer. "Your Honour, my last car worked fine when cheap generic oil was put in it instead of the manufacturer specified one, but this new car broke when the same was done, please make them buy me a new one" isn't likely going to fly.

The only chance I see you'd have at winning would be to prove that Ford engineers understood how intolerant to generic oils their new design was when they started selling vehicles fitted with it; to suggest that Ford should have known full well that many garages would not use the proper oil spec; to prove that Ford failed to suitably inform owners and garages of the unusual importance of using correct oil on these vehicles; and thus suggest that Ford knowingly acted recklessly by selling vehicles many of which they knew would fail in this way, and as such should be held liable for the costs of repair/replacement. I would not expect that to be easy. One argument Ford might raise here is that they are under significant pressure to put out new more environmentally friendly designs as quickly as possible due to the climate emergency and so they needed to push ahead with this despite any perceived risk that garages might ignore the oil specification, and it is just unfortunate that this proved so, but is still fundamentally not their fault when their instructions are not being followed.

You could instead try to sue the garages for using the wrong oil (and/or for using flush products when not necessary, if they did, since it's not actually clear whether the blame lies with the oil or flush products or both), but then you probably don't have any proof of exactly what the garages used for each and every service they performed for you, and they would just defend themselves by simply saying that they follow standard industry practice. They might claim that they had no knowledge of these engines needing special treatment, and you surely can't prove that they did prior to the damage being done, which is impossible to even put a date on. They might also suggest that it is unreasonable to memorise or spend time looking up the specific oil requirements of every vehicle, especially when they are under pressure from management and customers to get things done quickly and cost effectively. They might point out that the customer did not bother to enquire about what oil would be used, nor ask for a specific type to be used, and that they would have had to charge the customer more if they had done so due to the additional costs involved of getting this specific oil.

Ford/garages might also ask if the owner bothered to take their vehicle to a garage more frequently during covid if it was sat about for long periods, to ensure this wasn't badly affecting it, and if the owner did not do so, suggest that the owner was thus somewhat negligent.

I would expect the chances of winning in court to be slim. But I'm not a lawyer, so by all means speak to one. I understand they often give a free short consultation.

[alexp999]

I agree with most of what @rd457has said but to me it’s more than a quirk. It is a design flaw. Ford never intended the belt to need replacing at all and have since changed it to a chain on newer engines. 
That’s not to say they are negligent or reckless in knowingly selling it like that. They have just changed their recommendations as the information has presented itself to them. 
Plenty of engines have design flaws that need special attention. The dv6 is known for blowing turbos, particularly in arduous conditions like those that destroy the 1.0 wet belt. 

[unofix]

Well since so many people have now taken the time (especially Lyndon) to offer their thoughts and advice on the situation that @Chris70 find themself in. It would be nice to get their views next time they check back to read the reply's, and how they intend to proceed.

[FatHead1979]

12 minutes ago, unofix said:

Well since so many people have now taken the time (especially Lyndon) to offer their thoughts and advice on the situation that @Chris70 find themself in. It would be nice to get their views next time they check back to read the reply's, and how they intend to proceed.

Well he checked in about 5 hours ago and didn't provide any further comment or update, so I wouldn't hold your breath! 🤣

[Eatonm112]

On 3/28/2023 at 1:09 AM, rd457 said:

As much as I sympathise with the owner over the bill they face, I think that you're failing to properly understand the situation, and doing as you suggest would just prove to be a complete waste of time and (more) money.

Vehicles don't just need replacement parts every now and again, they need replacement fluids also, and it's the fluids that are of most interest here. If the "proper" fluids - as specified by Ford - had been used then the problem almost certainly would not have occurred based upon what I've read about it. If it had you'd maybe then have a good claim, however otherwise, without having used the correct oil, (or if there is any possibility that a garage used a flush product), Ford's lawyer is simply going to point out in court that the engine failed because it wasn't maintained as they had clearly specified that it should be, thus the blame falls on the owner and/or the garages(s) that did the oil servicing, and so case inevitably lost.

Note that Ford garages, to the best of my knowledge, are a franchise, and thus are separate entities to Ford themselves. If a Ford garage used the wrong oil, then whether the garage or Ford themselves are responsible for this I expect would come down to the details of the franchise contract, but most likely would fall upon the garage owner.

I'm sorry but as much as I'd be very upset if I were in the same situation, the most reasonable way to view the fact that the vehicle happens to be more sensitive about correct oil than typical is that this is simply a design quirk not an actual fault. It can't be considered a fault if it works perfectly fine when you correctly follow the instructions. You can't reasonably expect to win a claim against the manufacturer on the basis that the vehicle proved to not be as tolerant as most vehicles seem to be to use of oils not specified as compatible by the manufacturer. "Your Honour, my last car worked fine when cheap generic oil was put in it instead of the manufacturer specified one, but this new car broke when the same was done, please make them buy me a new one" isn't likely going to fly.

The only chance I see you'd have at winning would be to prove that Ford engineers understood how intolerant to generic oils their new design was when they started selling vehicles fitted with it; to suggest that Ford should have known full well that many garages would not use the proper oil spec; to prove that Ford failed to suitably inform owners and garages of the unusual importance of using correct oil on these vehicles; and thus suggest that Ford knowingly acted recklessly by selling vehicles many of which they knew would fail in this way, and as such should be held liable for the costs of repair/replacement. I would not expect that to be easy. One argument Ford might raise here is that they are under significant pressure to put out new more environmentally friendly designs as quickly as possible due to the climate emergency and so they needed to push ahead with this despite any perceived risk that garages might ignore the oil specification, and it is just unfortunate that this proved so, but is still fundamentally not their fault when their instructions are not being followed.

You could instead try to sue the garages for using the wrong oil (and/or for using flush products when not necessary, if they did, since it's not actually clear whether the blame lies with the oil or flush products or both), but then you probably don't have any proof of exactly what the garages used for each and every service they performed for you, and they would just defend themselves by simply saying that they follow standard industry practice. They might claim that they had no knowledge of these engines needing special treatment, and you surely can't prove that they did prior to the damage being done, which is impossible to even put a date on. They might also suggest that it is unreasonable to memorise or spend time looking up the specific oil requirements of every vehicle, especially when they are under pressure from management and customers to get things done quickly and cost effectively. They might point out that the customer did not bother to enquire about what oil would be used, nor ask for a specific type to be used, and that they would have had to charge the customer more if they had done so due to the additional costs involved of getting this specific oil.

Ford/garages might also ask if the owner bothered to take their vehicle to a garage more frequently during covid if it was sat about for long periods, to ensure this wasn't badly affecting it, and if the owner did not do so, suggest that the owner was thus somewhat negligent.

I would expect the chances of winning in court to be slim. But I'm not a lawyer, so by all means speak to one. I understand they often give a free short consultation.

Small claims court is not like a court drama on TV its very cheap and all you are looking to do is to present the evidence to a judge who will either rule in your favour or not so the more proof you can find and present the better your chances are. If you loose you only loose the fee you have to pay to file a claim and as you represent yourself you will not rack up thousands in bills. I sugested this way as its very cost effective and you get a good and fair chance of winning. 

[Ash6789]

I have a 2017 ford fiesta that I got brand new from a direct ford dealership. The car is 5 years old with a full ford service history, it currently has 81k miles and is very well looked after. 
On my way to work the warning lights came on the bash board (low oil pressure), I called ford assist and got towed home. Have had them do a once over they advised it will need to go back to ford for a full check. To my horror the car now need a new engine and turbo, at a cost of £9k!!!! 
I just cannot believe it that a car that has a full ford service history can be in this position?

Having contacted Ford UK they asked for the service history and a few days later they have offer £2.2k towards the cost of the repairs. This is leaving me with a cost of over £6k to get the car fixed.

After ford have offered the GWG that now no longer want to help me! I’m now having to pay out for trains to get to work each day while ford have also given me a deadline to take their offer other wise it will have to be reviewed and a possible lesser offer given as the car is a month older.

Im now stuck with a worthless car and high repair bill.

[Pigeon12]

Just goes to show that even full service by ford can still end up with wet belt issues somehow. Either they use the wrong oil or theres some other issue. I'm gonna need to collate a list of cars with wet belts so I can avoid them haha, which is ashame because I do quite like the new perguot 208. Just out of curiosity at what intervals did you get the car serviced. A lot of people seem to recommend every 6000 miles or every year with this engine I think.

[alexp999]

8 hours ago, Pigeon12 said:

Just goes to show that even full service by ford can still end up with wet belt issues somehow. Either they use the wrong oil or theres some other issue. I'm gonna need to collate a list of cars with wet belts so I can avoid them haha, which is ashame because I do quite like the new perguot 208. Just out of curiosity at what intervals did you get the car serviced. A lot of people seem to recommend every 6000 miles or every year with this engine I think.

Short journeys or lack of use seems to be a contributing factor. I don’t think Covid did this engine any favours. 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

10 hours ago, Pigeon12 said:

because I do quite like the new perguot 208.

You could always go for the e-208😃 No wet belt, obviously, and the latest version with 156hp is by far the quickest 208.

[orangecurry]

On 4/22/2023 at 11:58 AM, Ash6789 said:

I have a 2017 ford fiesta that I got brand new from a direct ford dealership. The car is 5 years old with a full ford service history, it currently has 81k miles and is very well looked after. 
On my way to work the warning lights came on the bash board (low oil pressure), I called ford assist and got towed home. Have had them do a once over they advised it will need to go back to ford for a full check. To my horror the car now need a new engine and turbo, at a cost of £9k!!!! 
I just cannot believe it that a car that has a full ford service history can be in this position?

Having contacted Ford UK they asked for the service history and a few days later they have offer £2.2k towards the cost of the repairs. This is leaving me with a cost of over £6k to get the car fixed.

After ford have offered the GWG that now no longer want to help me! I’m now having to pay out for trains to get to work each day while ford have also given me a deadline to take their offer other wise it will have to be reviewed and a possible lesser offer given as the car is a month older.

Im now stuck with a worthless car and high repair bill.

I would buy another cheap car to get your life back to normal.  Whatever happens with the Fiesta, it's going to take months to resolve.  Yes it will, as once Ford have your promise-of-money, there'll always be some excuse as to why your rebuild has been delayed.

Then you need to decide whether to take on Ford as above in the small claims court.  Ford are already trying to twist your arm into paying them to fix the issues caused by their poor design, so don't expect them to be nice in any way.  Getting another car takes the pressure off (this other car should maintain it's value), so you should be able to have a go at Ford if you so wish.  Or just cut your loses - what is a good condition 2017 car worth?... more or less than another 6k, not forgetting your outlay might increase over that 6k as time passes.   Try and do the maths in the cold light of day.

Good luck.

[TomsFocus]

13 hours ago, Pigeon12 said:

Just goes to show that even full service by ford can still end up with wet belt issues somehow.

Some Ford dealerships were using oil flushes in these.  I'd be interested to see the service invoices for this particular car as 80k in 5 years with regular servicing should be about the best you do to prevent wet-belt issues.

[iantt]

13 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Some Ford dealerships were using oil flushes in these.  I'd be interested to see the service invoices for this particular car as 80k in 5 years with regular servicing should be about the best you do to prevent wet-belt issues.

Yeah, I worked at one of those dealers that were using engine flushes on them too. Even though I said it wasn't to be done due to the wet belt. Completely ignored me and we carried on. At least the fiesta my partner has , hasn't had any flushes . Only used fords filters and Castrol 5w20 to the ford spec. Also oil change every 6 months. 7 years and approx 80k miles later it's still in one piece. Oh, and my focus I had was still going fine after 73k and 6 years. 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

All this makes it very hard for the average owner to know whether their car is serviced correctly, even by a Ford dealer. The handbook for my previous 1.0 ecoboost for example just said this about oil:

CAPACITIES AND SPECIFICATIONS - 1.0L ECOBOOST™



Use oil and fluid that meets the defined specification and viscosity grade.

If you do not use oil and fluid that meets the defined specification and viscosity grade, it could result in:

• Component damage not covered by the vehicle Warranty.
• Longer engine cranking periods.
• Increased emission levels.
• Reduced engine performance.
• Reduced fuel economy.
• Reduced brake performance.

Engine

Engine oil

Capacities

 

Variant	Including the Oil Filter
All.	1.2 gal (4.6 L)

 

Note:   The quantity of engine oil required to raise the indicated level on the dipstick from minimum to maximum is 0.3 gal (1 L).

Materials

Name	Specification
Ford-Castrol Magnatec	WSS-M2C948-B

Engine Oil Top-Up

If you are unable to find engine oil that meets the specification defined by WSS-M2C948-B, you can top-up with a SAE 5W-20 engine oil that is defined by ACEA A5/B5.

Note:   Do not use more than 0.1 gal (0.5 L) of the alternative engine oil between scheduled service intervals.

 

It does imply the incorrect oil is bad news, but no warnings of the dire consequences of using engine flush or additives such as Wynns or STP which many drivers have used for years. I was warned off such stuff many years ago anyway (long before wet belts and ecoboosts!) by my then girlfriends dad (who ran a garage) but how would most people know, unless they came across helpful sites like this? 

A prominent under bonnet sticker at least might have been a good idea and you might argue they if Ford knew such matters to be so critical to the health of the engine, they have been negligent to a degree in not drawing sufficient attention to it.

[Sharon K]

Hi 

My daughters car has had  her engine compromised and replacement of engine will be more than car is worth I’ve been told to locate all previous servicing and prove they are all genuine Ford parts  her car was under the age and mileage. 

[unofix]

1 hour ago, Sharon K said:

I’ve been told to locate all previous servicing and prove they are all genuine Ford parts  her car was under the age and mileage. 

Sadly, I warn you now that you are 100% wasting your time if you are expecting any kind of help from Ford.

Even in the event that they offered to make a contribution they would expect you to pay at least £5000 for your share of the work, which is way more than a new engine from a Ford engine supplier.

Check out the likes of PumaSpeed who will supply and fit a brand new 1.0 Ecoboost engine for £3300

Example: https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Brand-New-Ford-Service-10-EcoBoost-Engine---Fitted-Only-Price_18898.jsp

[KatieKimmis]

I've got the exact same issue, the lady who called me with diagnosis admitted that is is a known fault and gave me a number to open a case. I called the number and she was absolutely fuming they admitted it was a issue and demanded to know which location the garage was. My car is HP until 2027 and they want me to pay 4 thousand in repairs before they can even tell me if the engine is OK? Couldn't write this. Now I'm left with a car that doesn't work and a huge bill. 02035644444 try your luck with opening a case