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Fiesta 2003 Zetec crank no start question.


leederbyshire
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Hello all.  As per the subject title, I have a crank-no-start Fiesta.  I know it can by caused by several things, but I've read that if the tachometer doesn't move from zero, it may be the crankshaft position sensor.  It also gives up trying after a few seconds.  Does this really indicate that the CKP sensor is worth looking at, or is this (like so much of the information out there) a red herring/false goose/whatever?  I have no codes stored to help me.

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If the PCM can't detect that the Engine is turning over then the car will not start. That doesn't explain why it gives up after a few seconds though.

I don't know how well your car is catered for in FORScan but that is what I would use not only to check for Ford specific codes but also to look at Live Data while cranking. You can normally bring the RPM (more accurately than the Tacho) up with FORScan as well as other things like Fuel Pressure while cranking.

The other easy checks are to get back to basics, check for a spark at the plugs and check that the Camshaft is turning and for correct Camshaft Timing in case of stripped teeth if it is easy to do on your Engine.

You didn't say what Engine you have.

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Many thanks for your reply.  It's a 1.4 16V petrol Duratec.  I have ForScan, and the OBDLINK EX adapter that is recommended, so I'll try that for the RPM.  I don't think it has a fuel pressure sensor; but if you are sure that it has, that would help a lot.  I have checked the priming pressure, which is good (my gauge is calibrated in MPa, but it worked out at about 50 psi), but the fuel filter is still the original one.  The thing is, it was running perfectly well the day before, and I'd expect a fuel filter problem to show up gradually.

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Well, I do get RPM readings in ForScan, so thanks for that suggestion :-)  Time to look elsewhere.

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BTW, ForScan says that it can't communicate with the GEM module, although things like the interior light and the central locking are certainly working.  I don't even know if that would affect the starting.

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Disconnect the car battery and then investigate the GEM.

On a 2003 it could very well be suffering from water ingress and corrosion of the board. Disconnect all plugs from the GEM and remove it for a good inspection. If FORScan can't communicate with the GEM then it's likely that other modules can't, especially the instrument cluster which is part of the immobiliser PATS system

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27 minutes ago, leederbyshire said:

BTW, ForScan says that it can't communicate with the GEM module,

That is strange. If FORScan did not find the GEM for whatever reason the first time it was connected to that car then it will not look for it again until you either delete the original profile, or when connecting up again and it tells you it has found the profile for that car, say no and allow FORScan to create a new profile.

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9 minutes ago, unofix said:

Disconnect the car battery and then investigate the GEM.

On a 2003 it could very well be suffering from water ingress and corrosion of the board. Disconnect all plugs from the GEM and remove it for a good inspection. If FORScan can't communicate with the GEM then it's likely that other modules, especially the instrument cluster which is part of the immobiliser PATS system

Yes, there is certainly water ingress - the driver's side carpet is nearly always wet in winter.  I don't know where it comes from, but my guess is around the wiper motor shaft.  I've looked elsewhere, but it's far from obvious.  I'll try again to see if it will connect to the GEM, and if not, then I'll certainly inspect it.  I certainly hope I'm not having a PATS problem; but the immobiliser light isn't flashing quickly or anything (which is what I'd imagine it would no), and it does crank, so I hope they are good signs.

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Just now, leederbyshire said:

and it does crank, so I hope they are good signs.

The immobiliser never inhibits the crank, it very kindly just lets you run the battery flat just trying to start 🤣

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12 minutes ago, Tizer said:

That is strange. If FORScan did not find the GEM for whatever reason the first time it was connected to that car then it will not look for it again until you either delete the original profile, or when connecting up again and it tells you it has found the profile for that car, say no and allow FORScan to create a new profile.

Well, it didn't come up with a warning on the connection page, it's only on the tests page (and I suppose the fact it's on that page means that it must have at least found it) that the GEM test said they all failed to connect to whatever bits it was testing.

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3 minutes ago, unofix said:

The immobiliser never inhibits the crank, it very kindly just lets you run the battery flat just trying to start 🤣

That's just mean.  Is there a way that I can be sure that it's not an immobiliser problem?  I don't suppose 20 year-old keys are going to last forever.

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If it was a key not valid or key not detected the immobiliser light would be flashing like crazy and then it would flash a code like dot dot dash dash which you can look up in a table and it tells you what its not happy about.

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1 minute ago, unofix said:

If it was a key not valid or key not detected the immobiliser light would be flashing like crazy and then it would flash a code like dot dot dash dash which you can look up in a table and it tells you what its not happy about.

Ah, I think I've seen that on YouTube sometime.  It isn't doing that, as far as I can remember.  But I will check that next time I try.  I don't want to try it too often - it's getting a bit stressful each time it fails :-)

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10 minutes ago, leederbyshire said:

Well, it didn't come up with a warning on the connection page, it's only on the tests page (and I suppose the fact it's on that page means that it must have at least found it) that the GEM test said they all failed to connect to whatever bits it was testing.

It does sound like a GEM problem as @unofix said, but I would still try to create a new profile, saving the old one if necessary.

I don't often use the Laptop version of FORScan for convenience but from memory there is a Profile Tab and I can't remember how but you can create a new profile.

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1 minute ago, Tizer said:

I don't often use the Laptop version of FORScan for convenience but from memory there is a Profile Tab and I can't remember how but you can create a new profile.

The easiest way is when you connect it will say "found profile Wxxxx 1231 123" do you want to use this?

Just answer 'no' and it will do a full rescan and create a new profile. You can add something like the date to the file name just to make it easy to identify

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2 minutes ago, Tizer said:

It does sound like a GEM problem as @unofix said, but I would still try to create a new profile, saving the old one if necessary.

I don't often use the Laptop version of FORScan for convenience but from memory there is a Profile Tab and I can't remember how but you can create a new profile.

Thanks, I'll try it tomorrow.

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Just now, unofix said:

The easiest way is when you connect it will say "found profile Wxxxx 1231 123" do you want to use this?

Just answer 'no' and it will do a full rescan and create a new profile. You can add something like the date to the file name just to make it easy to identify

Thanks, that's what I thought and was trying to say before.

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2 minutes ago, unofix said:

The easiest way is when you connect it will say "found profile Wxxxx 1231 123" do you want to use this?

Just answer 'no' and it will do a full rescan and create a new profile. You can add something like the date to the file name just to make it easy to identify

Yes, I have got used to ignoring that, but I'll create a new one tomorrow.

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I have a question.  Is the throttle plate supposed to move in key position 2?  I thought it did, to check its position, but mine doesn't.  Although it closes completely (to close that small gap it has at rest) when you switch off.

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Getting back to basics.

  • Have you still got a spark at the plugs when cranking ?
  • If Yes, then spray "Easy Start" in to the air inlet.
  • Engine should start and run for a good few seconds.
  • If not then it has to be a timing issue.
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Sorry, yes, I do get a spark.  I have also checked the camshaft timing today.  I have the correct TDC locking pin, and the plate that fits in the slots at the end of the camshafts, and it's perfect.  TBH, I've been meaning to check that ever since I changed the cambelt, so at least it put my mind to rest about whether or not I had it correctly aligned when I tightened everything up.  I'll need to buy another tin of Easy Start - the one that's been sitting on the shelf for decades has lost its spray pressure.

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Well if you have a good spark and the timing is 100% correct (provided crankshaft position sensor is working correctly), the the engine has to start and run when you spray easy start in the intake.

If it doesn't the next move would be a compression test to check valves are working correctly.

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Yes, I think the CKP sensor is okay, since I get RPM readings in ForScan.  I don't know if the Camshaft PS is working, or even significant in this situation, but I'll see if I can find a way to test it.  I do have a compression tester, but if it fails (and I'd be surprised if it did, because the thing has been running well up to now), then I'm going to get it weighed in.  I'm not going to do anything major on a car that's worth £50 :-)

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I know.  It's served me well, and I've kind of got attached to it (which I don't suppose one ought to).  Oddly, I do happen to have another old throttle body here, so I plugged it in, and tried the relearn procedure on it, and this one does move.  I'll connect it up properly tomorrow, and try to start it.  I daren't do it now, because I dropped a torx bit in the engine compartment, and I want to find it before I do anything else.

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Well, I've decided to go back to it, since I would have to pay to have it hauled it away anyway :-)  I tried spraying Easy Start into it while the missus turned the engine over, and it did not start.  Time to check the compression.

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