Is this really progress?

[mjt]

Or is security actually being massively compromised for the sake of convenience?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-65696161

There's no way I would ever buy a car with keyless entry.

[alexp999]

Must be a slow news day. 

[Jimpster]

just asking for trouble

[sparkymatt]

Ford's latest keyless fobs go to sleep and don't emit a radio signal until they are moved. If you have an older keyless fob, you can get Faraday pouches which stops the signal being read.

[StephenFord]

2 hours ago, mjt said:

Or is security actually being massively compromised for the sake of convenience?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-65696161

There's no way I would ever buy a car with keyless entry.

I've said this before, but it's been a while so here I go again. Being brought up in the 60s I was a massive fan of Star Trek, but even at that tender age, I could see a continuing fundamental flaw. Every time Capt Kirk caught a bad guy, they put them in the ship's brig, which was protected a force field.

Without exception, the bad guy always destroyed the control panel and the force field disappeared. I always thought, why don't they have proper steel bars, opened/closed by a key! Still, what do I know 😂

[TomsFocus]

It is progress, just poorly executed.  Security has to evolve constantly, whether that's on cars, houses, computers, etc...there's always someone trying to breach it.  In hindsight, it seems odd that it took so long for someone to come up with the idea of sleepy fobs. 🤔

[Tizer]

With the Mk4 Focus and probably other cars it takes about 10 seconds to disable Keyless Entry in the Vehicle Settings, which is what I did for security and a few other reasons as well.

[alexp999]

57 minutes ago, Tizer said:

With the Mk4 Focus and probably other cars it takes about 10 seconds to disable Keyless Entry in the Vehicle Settings, which is what I did for security and a few other reasons as well.

Mk4 focus has sleepy keys it’s not an issue. 
 

This same news gets wheeled out over and over again. It’s old news. 

[mjt]

It seems to me there's still a potential issue with sleepy keys and that is that if you walk around in your house with it in your pocket, as I suspect many people do, they won't go to sleep. As for the Faraday pouch, the faff of having to use that seems to somewhat defeat the convenience.

As for your comment, Tom, about security having to constantly evolve, whilst that's true in principle the use of electronic systems has actually made it evolve backwards in my opinion. Even remote-controlled central locking is less secure than central locking controlled by turning the key in a mechanical lock. Yes, I know that even these can be broken into but keyless entry and keyless start has made it so much easier.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, Tizer said:

With the Mk4 Focus and probably other cars it takes about 10 seconds to disable Keyless Entry in the Vehicle Setting

You can certainly do it on the Mk 8.5 Fiesta also. Irrespective of security, I just don't like it!😃

[alanfp]

Yes I sometimes walk around my house with my keys in my pocket, but it's no problem to drop my keys into their Farady cage (Millicano coffee tin by the exterior door. And then I know where they are too! 

Trouble is , keyless entry is one of the things I love about my otherwise average car.

 

[TomsFocus]

Don't think I've ever walked around the house with keys in my pocket.  First thing I off-load for comfort when I get in.  

Considering relay theft generally happens late at night, chances are most people would be sat still anyway.  Of course, the major flaw there is if they get up to see what the noise is outside.

FWIW, I specifically chose a car without keyless entry this time.  But not for fear of theft (nice area, away from the main road etc), simply because the two keyless entry cars I owned long term both killed the 12v battery and fob battery in what I'd consider a short time.  I've owned a non-keyless Golf for 5 years now and still not had to change the fob battery.

 

[agraham]

Slightly off topic but it seems to me that cars are now unnecessarily complicated becoming mobile phones on wheels. In my olden days cars went to the the scrapper when the bodies rusted out but the mechanicals were still OK.

Then the manufacturers improved the rust proofing and cars lasted much longer and went to the scrapper because the mechanicals wore out and were beyond economic repair.

Now car life seems to be shortening again and the cars are going to the scrapper with good bodies and mechanicals but with failed electronics being beyond economic repair. In addition these electronics, being built to industrial rather than military standards, cause all sorts of puzzling complex faults, as they age and become unreliable, which are beyond the capability of most owners and garages to diagnose.

Progress or not?

Rant over!

[mjt]

I don't think that was a rant at all, your analysis is pretty spot-on (apart from the 1.0L Ecoboom which is designed to go to the scrapper at 100,000 miles or 10 years whichever comes first ).

[unofix]

1 hour ago, mjt said:

Ecoboom which is designed to go to the scrapper at 100,000 miles or 10 years whichever comes first

Sounds like to intro to 'Mission Impossible' should you choose this assignment

The car will self destruct in 10 years !!! 🤣

[billyboy]

Surely keyless cars have been around for that long everyone must know about Faraday pouches. If they are too lazy to use them then they must face the consequenses.

[StephenFord]

1 hour ago, billyboy said:

Surely keyless cars have been around for that long everyone must know about faraday pouches. If they are too lazy to use them then they must face the consequenses.

Cars have been around for such a long time that you'd think folk would know to get the oil changed once in a while - many don't...

[TomsFocus]

3 hours ago, billyboy said:

Surely keyless cars have been around for that long everyone must know about faraday pouches. If they are too lazy to use them then they must face the consequenses.

The whole point of keyless entry is convenience.  Having to use a Faraday pouch defeats the purpose of it. 

Also worth noting that Faraday pouches don't last long, the material breaks down pretty quickly when fobs are being pushed in & pulled out regularly.  Solid tin is more effective long term.

If people are that bothered about keyless entry though, they can either switch it off, move to a better area or buy a car without it.  Really not a massive issue.

[mjt]

1 minute ago, TomsFocus said:

The whole point of keyless entry is convenience.  Having to use a Faraday pouch defeats the purpose of it

Like wot I said earlier

[VFR800]

23 hours ago, sparkymatt said:

Ford's latest keyless fobs go to sleep and don't emit a radio signal until they are moved. If you have an older keyless fob, you can get Faraday pouches which stops the signal being read.

Have you tested this? Does it have a "wake" signal frequency? Never trust the bile a manufacturer spouts until you've either proved it or had it proved!! The utter crap that's getting passed as consumer ready these days and developers told to get it fixed in a firmware/software patch after the event is outstanding.

 

[agraham]

5 minutes ago, VFR800 said:

Have you tested this?

Yes.

5 minutes ago, VFR800 said:

Does it have a "wake" signal frequency?

No, it's an inertial sensor in the fob.

[alexp999]

I’ve tested mine too. 

[Hooded]

13 hours ago, mjt said:

I don't think that was a rant at all, your analysis is pretty spot-on (apart from the 1.0L Ecoboom which is designed to go to the scrapper at 100,000 miles or 10 years whichever comes first ).

 

There’s a reason I’m currently driving around in a MK2 and it’s not because I can’t afford a MK4. I don’t even have TPMS which is an example of an extra expense (when something goes wrong/or sensor battery dies) I didn’t need when I passed my test 30 years ago. 
 

New cars are getting electronically too complex. In the past you could buy an 10+ year old car as a beater and get cheap motoring (if you bought a good one), but the latest models won’t be so desirable to maintain once they are that age due to all the potential electrical faults. 

[StephenFord]

24 minutes ago, Hooded said:

 

There’s a reason I’m currently driving around in a MK2 and it’s not because I can’t afford a MK4. I don’t even have TPMS which is an example of an extra expense (when something goes wrong/or sensor battery dies) I didn’t need when I passed my test 30 years ago.

 

I too have a Mk2, but I added my own TPMS, at a cost of £25 which included the control panel, and all 4 x sensors, of which I can (and have) replaced the battery in each sensor LOL

 

[mjt]

56 minutes ago, Hooded said:

There’s a reason I’m currently driving around in a MK2 and it’s not because I can’t afford a MK4

Same here. I got rid of the Mk3 Ecoboom last year but I'm hanging on to the Mk2.5 for exactly the same reason.