Ford dealer broke my engine?

[Devizes]

Hi,

Took my Ford vehicle to an official dealer for the service and MOT.

That morning I asked them to quote me for a cambelt and water pump replacement as the car is now 10 year of age and around 60k miles.

Later in the day had a call from them saying that there was a problem, the engine had failed whilst they were doing the MOT, it appears that the cambelt has failed during the tests.

I know these things can happen without any warning, but I took the car in the morning without noticing any problems.

It is likely to be all genuine but the cynical in me feels that this is a heck of a coincidence?!

The MOT guidance for liability does say that the garage is liable for any damage done to the vehicle.

Would it be plausible for the belt to snap at that low millage? I know it's 10 years of age but it has had a very easy life. It's an automatic and it's driven without any stress at all from new. Always been serviced by main dealers.

The person giving me the bad new, said that they had already ordered the kit ( that was before I agreed over the phone to have it repaired). But I could pick it up if I didn't agree with the repair costs, and the car wasn't drivable.

I'd appreciate your views on this topic

[alexp999]

What engine?

[unofix]

The mileage is irrelevant, the fact is the belt is 10 years old and if we are splitting hairs it's actually overdue for replacement. Remember the recommendation by the Ford Motor Company to replace the belt at 10 years of age is a maximum not a minimum.

Very unfortunate that the engine has failed while under going the MOT test but I'm absolutely sure that the garage would not have done anything to cause its failure for the exact reason that they don't want the customer blaming them.

There are many hundreds of examples of the wet belt failing on the Ecoboom engines with mileages as low as 18,000 just do a search of the forum. Your belt may of course be a standard dry belt but regardless it was old.

[Devizes]

10 minutes ago, alexp999 said:

What engine?

not 100% sure what code but it is a 2.0 TDCi (163bhp)

[Devizes]

15 hours ago, unofix said:

The mileage is irrelevant, the fact is the belt is 10 years old and if we are splitting hairs it's actually overdue for replacement. Remember the recommendation by the Ford Motor Company to replace the belt at 10 years of age is a maximum not a minimum.

Very unfortunate that the engine has failed while under going the MOT test but I'm absolutely sure that the garage would not have done anything to cause its failure for the exact reason that they don't want the customer blaming them.

There are many hundreds of examples of the wet belt failing on the Ecoboom engines with mileages as low as 18,000 just do a search of the forum. Your belt may of course be a standard dry belt but regardless it was old.

I appreciate your comments and agree with some of them, but...

this is a main dealer and I would expect them to know their engines like no one else and if as you say "... fact is the belt is 10 years old.." then why didn't they make me sign a waiver like we have to on medical procedures?! Fact is that Ford did not expect the belt to break and didn't even think for a moment (otherwise they should have warned me) of anything going wrong.

I don't know what your analogy is with the Ecoboom engines???? This sounds like a design flaw somewhere which has nothing to do with my case and how many of those failed during MOT?  

[TomsFocus]

Giving cars an 'easy life' isn't the positive that people think...  Means that when they get to MOT, they get a massive shock having the nuts revved off them to purge the exhaust before the smoke test.

The MOT manual does state that testers are meant to refuse the car if the cambelt is in poor condition or if the belt is overdue, but I've never known a tester to actually check that.  People would complain if they did, and the vast majority of belts won't snap during the test, so they take the risk.

You have been unlucky, as the 2.0 TDCI belts are generally reliable and will usually outlive the 10 years, but equally it is now due, and you've even told us the engine doesn't get used properly, so was likely on it's last legs.  There often aren't any warning signs before a belt snaps.

[unofix]

56 minutes ago, Devizes said:

I don't know what your analogy is with the Ecoboom engines???? This sounds like a design flaw somewhere which has nothing to do with my case and how many of those failed during MOT?  

At the time of my reply you hadn't said what engine your car had, but you had said:

17 hours ago, Devizes said:

Would it be plausible for the belt to snap at that low millage?

I was simply pointing out that the mileage is often of little importance to the reliability of a cambelt and there are countless examples of cambelts which have failed at around 18,000.

As I've already said it was unfortunate that the cambelt failed when it did. Would you have felt better if it had failed the next morning when you started the car ?

[Devizes]

Thought I leave an update about the case....

Ford quoted £2900 for the job as it needs a new head with all the bits that go with it.

That's a lesson I won't forget!

 

[DaveT70]

52 minutes ago, Devizes said:

Thought I leave an update about the case....

Ford quoted £2900 for the job as it needs a new head with all the bits that go with it.

That's a lesson I won't forget!

 

Go and get a second hand head and get them to put that on

[TomsFocus]

1 hour ago, DaveT70 said:

Go and get a second hand head and get them to put that on

I doubt a Ford dealer will use a second hand part.  But I agree, whole job should come in under 4 figures with a used part at an indy garage.

[ris001]

The DVSA guidance for damage during testing is quite clear:

The garage is responsible.

You need to get in touch with the DVSA urgently and should not be paying for the repair.

 

Telephone: 0300 123 9000
Monday to Friday, 7:30am to 6pm

[alexp999]

The engine failed though, unless you can prove they caused damage?

Failure is not the same as damage.

[TomsFocus]

And 'guidance' is very different to law...  Still, no harm in trying though. 

I am a bit surprised that Ford didn't offer any sort of goodwill gesture, especially if the OP is a regular customer.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

The guidance does suggest the tester is liable, link here but I think the para below is the particularly relevant bit ( my italics):

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-testing-guide/appendix-4-liability-for-loss-or-damage

"Examples of these types of damage that (1) and (2) are intended to cover are where an examiner, whilst testing a vehicle smashes a brake light, causes the steering to become defective or inflicts other types of harm to the vehicle that did not exist at the time it was left in their possession for testing."

It does look like a bit of a legal nightmare, though.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

41 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

harm to the vehicle that did not exist at the time it was left in their possession for testing

Of course, the dealer could argue that the "harm" did exist in the form of the cambelt that was due/overdue for replacement. On the other hand, they were fully aware of this as the OP had already asked for a quote for the work. 

[Tizer]

The guidance may have changed at some time because when I had Diesel cars I was always took my cars for their MOT at the same place and I was always asked if the Cambelt was in need of replacement before the test.

Maybe it was just that Garage and they had some bad experiences before.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

 

 

1 hour ago, Tizer said:

The guidance may have changed at some time

Latest guidance for testers I could find was updated February this year and seems pretty much as you say:

Opacity test

This inspection is not for ‘L’ category vehicles or electric/combustion engine (hybrid) vehicles. An approved diesel smoke meter (DSM) will be needed to perform this inspection on vehicles first used on or after 1 January 1980.

The probe on some types of smoke meter must be correctly aligned with the exhaust gas flow. You may have to check the smoke meter manufacturer’s instructions.

Do not do a smoke test if the engine is not in a safe condition. You must make sure it’s safe by asking the vehicle presenter and carrying out a brief examination of the engine.

The smoke test should not be carried out if:

• there is insufficient oil in the engine
• the engine oil pressure is too low
• there is abnormal engine noise
• the governor has been tampered with
• the camshaft belt is in an unsatisfactory condition

[Tizer]

40 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

 

 

Latest guidance for testers I could find was updated February this year and seems pretty much as you say:

Opacity test

This inspection is not for ‘L’ category vehicles or electric/combustion engine (hybrid) vehicles. An approved diesel smoke meter (DSM) will be needed to perform this inspection on vehicles first used on or after 1 January 1980.

The probe on some types of smoke meter must be correctly aligned with the exhaust gas flow. You may have to check the smoke meter manufacturer’s instructions.

Do not do a smoke test if the engine is not in a safe condition. You must make sure it’s safe by asking the vehicle presenter and carrying out a brief examination of the engine.

The smoke test should not be carried out if:

• there is insufficient oil in the engine
• the engine oil pressure is too low
• there is abnormal engine noise
• the governor has been tampered with
• the camshaft belt is in an unsatisfactory condition

Thanks for that, it looks like my favourite MOT place were doing things properly.

[TomsFocus]

45 minutes ago, Tizer said:

Thanks for that, it looks like my favourite MOT place were doing things properly.

Probably the only one that is.  I've never been asked.  Had 2 done this year, one with a belt 3 years overdue and the other with a belt 2 years overdue.