Hi all.  Bit out of my depth with Forscan but I've apparently got an Oxygen Sensor not right?

Oxygen Sensor Bank 1 Sensor 1 is wrong voltage in 1st image but when I do Live Data, is looks like its Bank 2 Sensor 2 that's failed.

Car, when stopped, is pinking, when I accelerate in neutral, when ticking over.  General hesitation when giving it throttle in 3rd / 4th / 5th.

Suspect thermostat isn't working properly as temp is only reading 88c after a 30 mile run with ambient temp of 23c up here today? but after running Forscan, wondering if an Oxygen Sensor has failed.

If it is the sensor, where is it located on 1.8 Duratec?

 

 

The cat on these is immediately behind the engine, where the 4 branches of the manifold meet.

First sensor is on top of the cat, reached from above.  Second sensor is on the pipe just after the cat, reached from underneath.

I'm not sure those PIDs are the correct ones.  Has it triggered a fault code?

Hi Tom, no, no fault codes but the car's started running rough over the last week or 2.  Fuel consumption dropped by around 7MPG and hesitates when I try to floor it in 3rd - 5th.  If going through road works at 2,000RPM in 5th, when I leave roadworks and accelerate, feel it missing as it climbs to 2,750 - 3,000RPM.  Started pinking now, even with Shell V-Power (E5).

Checked coil packs with multimeter, they were all reading 1.1 on an Ohm test at the top 2 pins but I can't find data on what the coil packs should read.

Picure 1 was doing a Mode 6 test for misfires using Forscan.  The Live Data I'm guessing at.  Just thought I'd check EGR was working and O2 sensor data but I'm not sure what to look for either.

It's also running a bit cool as test menu on dash only getting to 89c on a long run today.  Never heard the fans kick in over the 2 year I've had her.

Am I right in saying that Bank 1 Sensor 1 is responsible for fuel mixture and Bank 1 sensor 2 is just for checking the cat is doing its job?

Was wondering if thermostat being stuck open would be responsible for fuel mixture running rich as Sensor 1 is running 740mV.  I believe 0-500mV is lean and 500mv - 1v is running rich, but again, still not sure?

If it was only rough when cold then the thermostat may be the cause.  But the running temp for these is 90c, so 2c off of that wouldn't cause me any concern.  The stat might be leaking a bit, but I don't think it's totally stuck open.

Yes, you're right about the sensors.  Though 2 may still have a small effect on fuelling if it's trying to correct for a weak cat.

I'm out of touch with figures for the electronic tests I'm afraid.  Hopefully someone else can confirm the correct voltages and resistances.

If the problem gets worse when warm then usually that's the sign of a faulty coil pack.  But it doesn't sound like that's the problem here?

Based on the symptoms and without any fault codes I'd say it's a MAP sensor fault.

Great help Tom, appreciated!

I did a few more live captures this morning, with engine at normal operating temp (warmed up).  The short term fuel trim appears to be rich and sometimes the long term is exceeding 10% so there's a fuelling issue somewhere.  Possible Vacuum leak but again, not sure.

Great info on the proper running temp there as opinions seem to vary wildly on different parts of the internet as to what ODBII should be reading the coolant temp as.  The fan is running, but it's not like the radiator fans of old which were either 100% on, or off.  I noticed my fan is kicking in at tickover when engine temp is hitting 90c, fan's running at 33% then it goes off around 86c so, as you say, I'm happy with the thermostat at the minute as it's a pig of a job on these!

As for the O2 sensors, I did a live capture of them using Forscan and the Android App "Torque Pro" and both appear to be working.  I did notice Sensor 2 / downstream fluctuating a bit which, after reading your reply, suggests cat is possibly getting weak.

Coil Packs, I just went old skool on them and removed the wiring plug, one at a time, on each plug and listened to the tone of the engine which changed on all 4 cylinders so the packs appear fine.  As a sidenote, Forscan also picked up each cylinder as a misfire or coil pack failure immediately so I know the packs are working.

As you've suggested a MAP sensor, I'll have a look into that.  Car runs fine with no hesitation when Cold, it's when she gets warmed up the hesitation and rough running / pinking starts.  It is pinking when I'm stationary, in neutral and I give it a rev now.  The engine appears to momentarily choke itself before the revs pickup, albeit for a split second, but it's noticeable.

 

O2 Sensors:

 

O2 Sensors in Torque App:

 

Coolant Temp:

 

Fuel Trim (tickover then throttle and hold pedal at 2,500rpm):

So I went and did a Live trace on the Barometric Pressure / MAP Data and Barometric is 100.76KPa.  I'm in Fife at Sea Level so assume this is correct, or at least the ECU is seeing it as OK.

The MAP is reading 28KPa at tickover and when I give it full throttle in 3rd, it's reading 100KPa.  Can I assume there's no vacuum leaks with these values?  Anyone know what they should be reading?

I assume MAP is working as values change from tickover to driving up through the gears?  As I said earlier, LTFT values are +10% - +13% which is running rich.

 

First 60 seconds is tickover with 3 blips of the throttle, then driving and last 60 seconds is idle again:

 

1 hour ago, Bar72 said:

Barometric is 100.76KPa.  I'm in Fife at Sea Level so assume this is correct

That is correct and I would expect the same on the MAP Sensor with the Ignition on but Engine not running.

1 hour ago, Bar72 said:

The MAP is reading 28KPa at tickover and when I give it full throttle in 3rd, it's reading 100KPa.

That does not seem unusual for a Petrol Engine although I can't say for sure if it is what is expected from your particular Engine.

Petrol Engines are Throttled so at light Throttle openings the MAP is less than Atmospheric, at fully open Throttle I would expect the MAP to be the same as Atmospheric and more than Atmospheric for Turbo Charged Engines.

@Tizer  Nice one, thank you for clearing that up for me.  Nearly at my wits end with it but don't want to scrap it for possible something easy to replace.

Hmm, looks like it's not the MAP or a vac leak.  Back to the drawing board then.  Pinking is, as I'm sure you know, fuel igniting before the spark plug fires, so that should rule out the full ignition system including the coil pack.

The fuelling isn't particularly precisely controlled on these.  Many don't even have a cam sensor fitted.  It's indirect injection and is only timed by the inlet valve opening, which sucks the fuel/air mixture into the cylinder together.  So in my mind, either there's excess heat in the head for some reason.  (Air lock in the cooling system for example).  Or there's too little fuel being injected so it ignites more easily and without the need for a spark.

As the lambda sensors are reporting a rich mixture, too little fuel seems unlikely.  Don't suppose you have a laser thermometer to measure the temp of the coolant pipes where they exit the head?

Only other thing I've just thought is that these engines do have an EGR valve, despite being petrol.  If that's leaking hot exhaust back into the cylinders all the time that could be adding enough heat to burn the fuel early.  Might be worth trying to blank that as a test.

A thought about the Pinking, Oil getting into the Cylinders can cause Pinking.

This was quite common at one time in Engines and was caused primarily by Oil seeping past the Valve Stem Oil Seals although seeping past the Piston Rings can also cause it.

The giveaway was that you can see Blue smoke from the Exhaust, especially after putting your foot down after an Overrun or light Throttle openings.

I thought that all cars now have Knock Sensors  that ***** the Ignition Timing and possibly reduce the fuelling when Pinking is detected for a few fractions of a second.  

Ha ha, that has been automatically  blanked out word is the opposite of "Advance".

Edited June 24, 20241 yr by Tizer
Additional info

Just a thought, does this engine have swirl flaps in the inlet manifold. I know some earlier versions had issues with them but this is a later one.

You've assumed the noise is pinking but could it be something else?

Thanks again @TomsFocus, for the detailed response.  No, I don't have a laser thermometer.  I changed the coolant last year sometime, this fault has reared up in the last few weeks.  I'll see about trying to blank the EGR when I next under it.

 

@Tizer has got me thinking about Oil getting into the Cylinders causing pinking.  Didn't know oil can do that.  Funny though, as it's burning oil at the minute.  I change oil every 6,000 but I just put in whatever I can get at the time.  Can't say I've noticed blue reek out the back yet, I'll keep an eye from now on.  Would knock sensor ***** timing if oil instead of fuel was causing the pinking?  It does have a knock sensor, it under the Intake Manifold, along with every other service component you can think of (thanks Mazda for the poor design).

Sometimes, certain oil won't burn and consumption is OK than a different brand of oil (all 5w 30 but Miller vs Shell vs Mannol, etc) will burn 1 litre every 1,000 miles.  Car's nearly on 160,000 but as I've just put a clutch in it and done the rear arms / ARB / droplinks, I'm looking to get a bit more out of it.

 

@mjt Swirl Flaps I'm thinking it does but it's a 2009 engine so I think earlier issues were addressed.  Intake Manifold Runner Control is showing in Forscan as No Fault so assume swirl flaps are fine.

Thanks to everyone for trying to help.  I'll keep an eye and do another Forscan, monitoring the timing, just to see what's going on with that.  At work the now but back up road on Wednesday.

1 hour ago, Bar72 said:

  Would knock sensor ***** timing if oil instead of fuel was causing the pinking

It should do if it sounds the same as the sound that it is programmed to detect. You may be able to Monitor it with FORScan, I don't know.

Monitoring the Timing may not tell you much because in modern cars it changes constantly.

Burning Oil has a distinctive smell, it always reminds me of a Mr Whippy Ice Cream van.

@Tizer no smell of burning oil or blue smoke at back, but, it's using a bit.

I'm on a 400 mile round trip with her the now and it's running rough again.  I pulled over and put it on Torque app on and when I select test results, o2 bank 1 sensor 1 is failing mode 6 test again.

This was also picked up in Forscan.

This was the very first fault that I started topic on so I'm thinking intermittent sensor fail which appears to pop up when the throttle demands fuel, cruising at 2000rpm then planting pedal gives hesitation and missing felt through car.  No eml on dash though.

When I get home on Wednesday, I'll pickup sensor from breakers and update this thread as I don't like no solution topics.

thanks again for your help.

Do all the plugs look the same? It might indicate which cylinder could be giving the issue if it’s related to the oil consumption

Going back to basics, pinking as I understand it , is caused by early detonation of the charge mixture and risks causing mechanical damage to the pistons, crank etc

causes can vary from rich mixture, advanced timing, glowing carbon in the cylinders, poor octane fuel etc. I stick to E5 fuel .

@RL123  yes, totally.  Mixture is running rich which is when I began to notice she wasn't running right.  It's gradually gotten worse over the last few weeks.  it's still pinking, missing and general hesitating even with the E5 fuel.  I only put E5 in as it really hates E10.  I'll also pull the plugs and have a look when I get it home.  thanks again for your help.

Looks like it's the upstream O2 sensor after all.  finally, managed to catch it! 

sensor voltage is 0.45v low, high and baseline, which, I believe means sensor is dead.  Torque reported this after a round of misfires in 4th gear, accelerator pressed.  Fingers crossed it'll degrade further and throw an EML.

OK, so O2 sensor turned up yesterday.  Old one was "lazy at updating" so that's £28 not down the drain.  Fitted it and fuel mix is now running better.  No longer running rich.

Long / Short term fuel trim back down to single figures so 90% sure the sensor was tired.

Notice the "flatline" on the live data is when car is in gear, coasting down a hill.  Voltages should be < 0.5v which is indicating lean condition.

 

However, other issues still present but they only appear after a 40 mile drive so I've got a heak-soak problem somewhere, again, no fault codes being thrown.  Fuel trim values are remaining steady, whether cold or after 40 mile trip when she starts playing up (hesitation, feels like not getting fuel at throttle plant between 1,700-2,000RPM, surging at WOT).  Thinking if EGR was stuck open then I'd be getting random lean misfire code but no, nothing coming up and live data all reading good.

Got an infared thermometer coming tomorrow (hopefully) so I'll check coolant temp as it leaves the head.  Can't get into the EGR at the minute as my back's playing up so leaning over car isn't an option but someone else has said mixture would be prone to running lean, not rich, if EGR was stuck open and it probably would cut out at idle, however, I'm still going to look at it in the next week or so.

I've also been turned onto another forum post which is related to:

This is identical to the issue I'm having with mine on a 40 mile plus journey so I'm looking at trying replacement solenoids as they cheap enough.  I'll update later on when I find out if that's the cure.

Here's the Ford spark plugs that were in it.  I'm not sure what I'm looking at but I think they look OK?  I've upgraded them with NGK ITR6F13 Laser Iridium's.  The rear O2 sensor has now packed up (Constant 1.2v) so issue still not solved.  If anyone can have a peek at the plugs, I'd appreciate it.

Also been Live data on timing and it isn't backing off when the pinking is occuring.  Usually goes from around 15 to 45 degrees on initial stamp of the pedal then comes back down?

 

 

 

 

Oh, O2 sensor wiring plug pinout?

2 x White: Heater Wires?

1 x Black: Earth?

1 x Grey: Signal?

Needing to check looms for power and feedback but pinouts not covered in Haynes manual.  any ideas?

Rough running, poor fuel economy, hesitation all fixed now.  £9 part.  Intake Manifold Runner Control Solenoids.  Controls the swirl flaps apparently.  Doesn't show up on computer as a fault so no codes.  Just done a 60 mile journey and she's running spot on now.  Just updated in case anyone else having similar symptoms.  Change this before you go wasting money on sensors the car doesn't need.

So the Intake Manifold Runner Control Solenoids cured the rough running for a while but recently, due to summer heat and ambient temps getting over 20c, problems returned.

Turned out, for anyone reading this, it was what @TomsFocus had initially suggested, the MAP sensor.

Initially, you'll get what feels like an occasional misfire, then it steadily gets worse, total loss of power.  Eventually, car won't start and you're stuck.

Hope this help someone else with Duratec 1.8 / 2.0 rough running.

1 hour ago, Bar72 said:

So the Intake Manifold Runner Control Solenoids cured the rough running for a while but recently, due to summer heat and ambient temps getting over 20c, problems returned.

Turned out, for anyone reading this, it was what @TomsFocus had initially suggested, the MAP sensor.

Initially, you'll get what feels like an occasional misfire, then it steadily gets worse, total loss of power.  Eventually, car won't start and you're stuck.

Hope this help someone else with Duratec 1.8 / 2.0 rough running.

Now that you have FORScan it would be a good Idea to record a run with the MAP and other parameters and name and save it  in the App for future reference.

On 9/9/2024 at 12:30 PM, Tizer said:

Now that you have FORScan it would be a good Idea to record a run with the MAP and other parameters and name and save it  in the App for future reference.

Good call mate.  Always good to get a baseline when car running spot on so you can refer when she's sick.