Starter Grind

[stewby]

Hello all, might as well start the new membership with a question, my new 04 mondeo 2.0tdci has come with a promise of a new clutch / flywheel 8kmiles ago, however, on starting it, there is a graunch sound similar to one cog slipping over another.

After red lights on and waiting for 5 seconds, turning the key sometimes starts it ok, sometimes it doesnt. A few times I have had to rock the car in gear before it is catchable by the starter.

Is this something to be expected with a new flywheel, or is it possible that it isnt new and has worn spots.

Does the flywheel come to rest in particular positions?

Thanks

[stef123]

The starter will be full of filings from the old flywheel

[stewby]

OK,didn't consider that, I'll remove it and check it out, poss get it serviced. I was wondering about the cause of the grinding noise, would it be;

a) where the starter cog shoots out to engage the flywheel teeth, travels the correct distance, but lack of or worn teeth on the flywheelprevents it from biting.

b)the cog shoots out and butts up against the side of the flywheel teeth and travels no further, but then spins with edge to edge contact instead of the expected tooth face to face contact.

Anyway,with the starter out, the flywheel will be visible, I can put it in 4th and rotate one of the road wheels. It'll turn the flywheel, so that I can inspect the teeth.

If I cant get my head in, I'll look directly, , if space isnt available, I've got an HD webcam which I can point at it, and view it on the laptop.

Hopefully.

Thanks for the response.

[FOCA]

As stef123 has said, its liable to be the starter motor,

the engine/ flywheel comes to rest randomly, in any position (there are "tight" spots going through the 4-stroke cycle) if there was a tooth/ teeth missing, (unlikely) it would probably stay in that position,

there are 2 basic kinds of starter actuator, "screw" type or solenoid, the "screw" type uses the starter motors inertia to engage the flywheel, the other (as used on the Mondeo) uses a solenoid to slide the starter motor gear across to engage the flywheel, this is probably the bit causing the problem, as it is probably contaminated with swarf from the DMF breaking up.

If you bought the car recently you could ask the seller to fix it or at least contribute, a (decent) pattern starter motor can be had for aroung £60, (not fitted) they are not difficult to fit and a competent "tooled up" :) DIYer could do it no problem

[stewby]

I'll attend this weekend, I'm not sure if the flywheel broke up, or whether the clutch just started slipping and they changed the flywheel as a matter of precaution.

It was changed 8k miles ago, (bought by me at 130k miles for £1500) by a mechanic who this home-based trader seems reluctant to put me in touch with. (purely to ask if the grind will invalidate the 12 month guarantee that the trader offerred with the flywheel). I'm presuming that he's in Leicester, like the trader.

I'm hoping that the assurances are genuine, and that the items have been changed, instead of the hardware (outlasting the 12 month guarantee) doubts being just my own cynical take on lower end car sales people.

He also went very quiet for several days when I mentioned the EML being on constantly. (That was also guaranteed to not fail). He soon got back in touch mind, when I texted back 'fault cleared, P405 Exhaust gas recirculation sensor A circuit low'.

Oh well, Just put it down to experience I suppose, Sadly, I'm presuming that the promised second key from the ford dealership where it originally came from wont be getting sent on to me any time soon.

[stewby]

• When weather allowed, I took the starter off, a nice shiny new looking case and good teeth, the flywheen teeth all looked good, (as good as I could tell on the webcam/laptop viewing arrangement).

Something small did fall out of the starter, poss swarf, although I couldnt locate it on the ground to confirm it. The cog travelled up the rotor shaft with ease, although there was minor wear on the leading side of the cog.

On reassembly and start up, the first thing that it did was 'Grrrrriiiiiiind', but on second attempt, it bit and turned over.

It seems that if the starter is used before the glow plug light has gone out, its more likely to grind. By waiting for the light to go out and then turning, it seems to start ok. Confused face.

Last night I thought that it might be the grease on the starter rotor, which I dont think is necessary, bearing in mind the very occasional use that this undergoes. Anyway, perhaps the grease (stiffer when cold) was forcing the cog to rotate instead of just sliding along into engagement before turning. But then it did it when the engine was hot last night so bang goes that theory.

Final option, take it into a place that deals with starters. This weekends job.

[FOCA]

• It seems that if the starter is used before the glow plug light has gone out, its more likely to grind. By waiting for the light to go out
• .

Always wait intill the glow plug lights go out before turning the key fully/ starting the engine, its bad practice not to (very bad for the glow plugs and puts un-nessesary additional load on the battery and electrical system) if the engine is warm and the engine may not even start if it is cold

[stewby]

This is when the engine is hot. My vectra had lights that illuminated longer, the colder the engine was. (Perhaps there was a current sense cct on the glow plugs, so that if they are already hot, they dont have to heat up much more to reach 'pinch-off' resistance, whereas if they are cold, they have some way to go before the same high plug temp is reached).

Anyway, the plugs glowing for 4-5 seconds in a hot engine makes me concious of them burning out, which is why I tried starting prematurely.

I would have theorised that the current drawn through the plugs might be stopping the starters kick over, however , it has grinded (forgive that one) even after waiting 1 second after the plug lights had gone out. Once or twice.

It definitely likes you to wait until lights out before cranking.

[s.jsutton]

Hi there Stewart.

Please keep us updated on on your progress with this issue.

I have exactly the same problem on my 52 plate.

Bought the car approx 1 year ago with a new starter/dmf and clutch.

It has the same issue as you have described but less frequent, it may go 6 or 8 weeks with no grind, and will then do it twice in a week.

Regards

Simon

[flying clutchman]

It's nearly certainly caused by iron filings in the starter from the old flywheel. The best thing to do is to take the starter out and bang the open end of the starter onto the kerbside. This will shake out some of the filings. Unfortunately they become magnetised and stick inside. If you look at where the pinion runs up and down there is another screwed shaft buried deep in the casing. If you run the pioion back and forth you can see it. This becomes very dry. DO NOT oil as this makes matters worse. (filings stick to the oil) Just spray with WD40 and work the pinion backwarsd and forwards till it runs smoothly. The wd will evaporate but leave the starter pinion free. If this doesn't work get a new starter.

[bladeage]

The starter will be full of filings from the old flywheel

....so will the crank angle sensor and that will cause more problems later.

[bladeage]

Just a thought..........

I have heard of brand new complete clutch kits being fitted (dmf) and they have failed causing the usual wobble and destroying the starter motor again.....first signs of the DMF going are unusual noise (humming,knocking) from the engine bay and then later on poor response/operation of the starter motor.

I know someone who changed his dual mass clutch system 3 times in 18 months (vauxhall) and the root cause was a knackered crank.

food for thought with the dmf problems loads have!>????

[flying clutchman]

Just a thought..........

I have heard of brand new complete clutch kits being fitted (dmf) and they have failed causing the usual wobble and destroying the starter motor again.....first signs of the DMF going are unusual noise (humming,knocking) from the engine bay and then later on poor response/operation of the starter motor.

I know someone who changed his dual mass clutch system 3 times in 18 months (vauxhall) and the root cause was a knackered crank.

food for thought with the dmf problems loads have!>????

I've fitted lots of clutch/dmf to fords (and other makes) and have never had problems like this. The iron filings which clog the starter are the rivets on the rear of the dmf being ground off by excess movement. I think you have to regard a dmf as a wearing part just like a clutch unit. Complete clutch/dmf assemblies are available for some vehicles such as vw golfs, reinforcing this concept.

[stewby]

Well, events continued last night, started the engine without incident at work and drove back, parked up, then later, went out again, but on restarting for the return journy, key position 3 was met with nothing ,no solenoid click, grind or vroom. Stranded.

A call to the RAC brought a recovery wagon 90 mins later, where the chap took measurements and hit the starter with a steel bar. Hey presto it started, and I drove home to repark on 'bumpers hill'.

This morning I asked a local starter refurber for a price, bump started, went up and changed it for a new one. The old one had some filings and muck in it.

On refitting and testing the new one, it did exactly the same as the other, final key position and no click, only red lights. Getting concerned here, I jiggled some wires, and it restarted, seems that the deadness was the sealed plug socket in line with the pos 3 / solenoid wire. So then I restarted it 10 times and there was no grind, whether instant start and waiting for plugs off light.

I therefore deduced that the grind was because of a duff starter, stated by the refurb specialist as a chinese type; 'they use cheap metal - ribbish' .

On paying, the telephone price suddenly had to have vat added, which if they'ed told me on the phone, would have been less of a sickener, anyway, it seems to be ok, onto the other faults now, on this supposedly perfect (according to the seller) car.

[stewby]

Over the last week or so, the grind has continued. Hot or cold engine, standing overnight or stopped for 2-3 minutes. Totally random. I shorted out the link connector, so that contact resistance was eliminated. the first thing I heard when restarting - Grrriiiinnnd! so no luck there.

I located the starter relay (K22) and opened that up, there was a little contact resistance, so it was cleaned and refitted.

Engine started nice, but then on restart - 'grind'. 1 out of every 5 turns was bad, which is an improvement. Next step is the battery. This one is the original 04 reg, and it drops to 11.7V just after the glow plugs have switched off. I'm hoping that its that.

I'm fearing the worst though, cos the only real solution is to rock the car in gear ever so slightly, to reposition the flywheel teeth.

[stewby]

Its not an electrical thing. It seems to be down to the starter cog / ring gear. After 2 grinds, it turned over after I rocked it in gear. Damned frustrating.

Yesterday I spoke to the mechanic who changed the clutch / flywheel (to a solid) 8kmiles ago, he said that there is a different number of teeth on the solid flywheel compared to a dual mass type. Hence a different starter cog. That's about the only thing that seems to make sense these days.

This suggestion was ridiculed by the starter motor supplier.

Can any one vouch for the number of teeth matching / varying between the solid / dual mass types?

Getting desperate now.

Thanks

[flying clutchman]

It should have the same amount of teeth, but it's possible it doesn't. However if that was the problem you would just get gringing all the time.It wouldn't explain your starter sometimes being 'dead'.

[stewby]

It was dead on the one occasion, (the following day, I changed the starter for a new one) I think that the lack of solenoid click was due to dirty contacts on the starter relay (mentioned above), there was pitting on the contacts, giving an ohmic reading, when removed from the fuse/relay housing and tested.

The only seemingly guaranteed method when it grinds repeatedly is to rock the car in gear a fraction, and that seems to allow it to catch.

I saw a youtube vid yesterday outline the issues of shimming the starter, so that the teeth do not mesh as completely as they might, were the starter to be bolted directly onto the engine.

Obviously, if the cogs withdraw from each other too much, then broken teeth can ensue, is anyone aware of a shimming practice related to Mondeo starters?

Thanks