2.0 Tddi Running Rough

[gixer103]

Hi All,

I have a 2.0TDDI 51plate estate 165,000 miles,

I had the EGR -manifold pipe blow (90 deg rubber) at the front of the engine so I replaced it with a silicone one,

once fitted the car starts & runs all ok, But after you have travelled around 4 miles its starts to run

really rough with white smoke just as though the pipe has gone again but all is ok with it,

I have removed all the pipe work & cleaned then all out inc the manifold & EGR valve,

once the car has cooled down it runs & starts all ok,

does any one have any ideas

Many thanks in advance Keith

[stooge75]

Have you had it plugged in to see what fuel pressure etc is normal? Beginning of pump failure maybe?Injectors?

[FOCA]

Hi All,

I have a 2.0TDDI 51plate estate 165,000 miles,

I had the EGR -manifold pipe blow (90 deg rubber) at the front of the engine so I replaced it with a silicone one,

once fitted the car starts & runs all ok, But after you have travelled around 4 miles its starts to run

really rough with white smoke just as though the pipe has gone again but all is ok with it,

I have removed all the pipe work & cleaned then all out inc the manifold & EGR valve,

once the car has cooled down it runs & starts all ok,

does any one have any ideas

Many thanks in advance Keith

It could be many things and you have to eliminate/ track down the cause -

The EGR has a cooler (it comes off the 2nd cylinder from the left, on the exhaust manifold) it can split causing these symptoms

A solid blanking plate could be fitted right on the exhaust manifold (effectively disabling the EGR cooler) and another soild plate on the EGR valve

This will eliminate the EGR cooler as the potential cause of the problem and help the performance, economy and reliability of the car

The EGR components can also be completely removed, the car runs better like this - as its a Euro3 the EML (engine management light) does not come on if the EGR is blanked, so this can be done no problem

The TDDI is moch tougher/ more reliable than the TDCI, The TDDI has Bosch mechanical injectors that do not suffer the problems that the Delphi injectors have on the TDCI, the TDDI has been known to go to 330+ miles

Keep an eye on the fluid levels and see if you are losing any coolant (is it low/ does it go down slowly?) - if you need to top it up keep the right strength of the correct anti-freeze, - if you top it up with water it may be ok in the summer but the diluted solution could cause problems when the winter comes

Some of these faults do not show up on OBD codes, and if you take it to a garage/ mechanic/ diesel specalist can leave them "scratching their heads" as they often have an "injector" mentality and don't mind spending your money, and i have heard "horror stories" of perfecty servicable injectors being replaced at great expense when the fault was something cheaper/ simpler

The solid blanking plates cost about £5 each,

its also worth doing the "service" items 1ST (because these need done anyway/ don't cost the earth and a blocked filter etc could potentially be the source of a problem) like the oil/ filter and the air filter and fuel filter (i just use the cheapest pattern air filter i can find, and change it every 6months/ 6k, when i do the oil) - its best to use genuine or "premium" oil and fuel filters

You can get your own code reader, the TDDI is OBD1 (not OBD11) so some readers do not work on it, - F-super (about £20) has been found to work

Let us know how you get on

[gixer103]

FOCA

What blanking plate do you use for the cooler is it the same as the EGR,

The problem only arised since the pipe split

All service items are all ok as only done around 4000 miles age

I have bought the blanking plate (alloy) from eBay just waiting for it to arrive

Keith

[FOCA]

FOCA

What blanking plate do you use for the cooler is it the same as the EGR,

The problem only arised since the pipe split

All service items are all ok as only done around 4000 miles age

I have bought the blanking plate (alloy) from Ebay just waiting for it to arrive

Keith

If you just stick the blanking plate in front of the EGR valve it should be ok - if the smoke is because of a leaky EGR valve - this might cure it

You cannot fit an aluminium/ alloy plate to the exhaust manifold - it would melt - that is why i recommend stainless steel plates - just in case the aluminium melts - the hot exhaust gasses have to go through the cooler then the valve- the valve can act as a heat shield (especially if it is disabled) so the aluminium one should be ok after the EGR

The ones with the holes in them to let the gasses through are a waste of time

I had to have a special blanking plate fabricated out of solid 8mm stainless steel, - the 8mm is "overkill" and 5 or 6mm is thick enough,

I bought a few plates and found they did not fit well - eg the holes were too big and the plate could "move around" before the nuts/ bolts were tightened

I have a loose manifold im working on and i could give you the sizes

there is another hose at the bottom that is prone to splitting - worth checking

is your coolant level ok? / staying at the same level?

is it a rear mounted EGR? some pictures with the engine cover off would be useful

[gixer103]

Yes its a rear mounted EGR

[gixer103]

[gixer103]

FOCA

Well I have blanked off the EGR valve ( made a makeshift plate) Checked all the hoses marked on photo below & coolant is all ok

any more ideas as I am about to set fire to the dam thing lol,,

Keith

[stooge75]

Is your plate stainless steel?

[gixer103]

The one I have ordered is alloy as could not find a SS one,

the one I made as a temp to see if it worked was normal steel about 2.5 mm thick,

[FOCA]

The other hose that splits is the one in-between the solid plastic "transfer" pipe (that runs alongside the bottom of the radiator) and the metal pipe on the engine (number 3 in the diagram)

The relative movement of the engine and chassis and the oil from the breather breaking it down eventually causes a split - splits can be hard to spot without taking the hoses off

From the pictures you have a TDDI with a rear EGR and a fixed- vane turbo (pnumatic actuator)

The good news is there is no seepage around the injectors - they look dry - the top heatshield is missing from the exaust manifold/ turbo - did you take it off for photos or is it missing? - if it is missing it could be that the turbo/ manifold was changed at some point - there is a dark stain around the compressor inlet - could be from oil or heat discoloration (or both)

Its always difficult diagnoseing problems at a distance - if i could see, hear, touch and smell the car it would be a lot easier -

You say you have white smoke - it could be diesel - overfuelled due to loss of boost or a fault in the injection system- this would normally be described as black smoke though. It could be oil - due to worn valve guides/ seals or turbo seals/ head gasket. Or it could be water - from a blown head gasket, or the EGR cooler

The head gasket on a Mk3 diesel is quite tough and does not blow easily

The coolant flows through the EGR cooler, it can develop a split that can leak a little water/ coolant into the exhaust manifold which turns to steam, - it could seal when cold then leak when warm (due to the expansion of metal when hot) it can only be a tiny bit of water to cause a problem

The split could potentially pressurize the coolant system, causing more leaks

Check for play in your turbo shaft, if it gets bad, oil can spill out of the seal, this goes into the inlet and right through the engine, out the exhaust - oil can also get in through the engine breather - a little is normal and can build up - so your hoses may be coated in oil from just the breather

An experienced mechanic learns to recognise the smell of burn oil, diesel etc so can often diagnose problems just from the color/ smell from the exhaust - or the sound of the engine etc

If you think like a mechanic and check through everything one at a time you should eventually eliminate the problem

You probably dont want to spend any money but a boost gauge can be picked up for about £30 online and can be very useful for diagnosing bost/ turbo problems (you would know if you developed a leak in the hoses or the turbo is not producing th boost it should)- a 25 or 30psi mechanical one would be fine

At the moment all you know for sure is the egr valve was not leaking

[gixer103]

Hi,
Re-checked the hose marked as No3 all ok,
Turbo is all ok no play , turbo cover was removed by me
The whiteish smoke smells of fuel so not steam or oil smoke.
My brother in law recons injector or pump but it only started since the pipe arrowed split??

[stooge75]

The one I have ordered is alloy as could not find a SS one,

the one I made as a temp to see if it worked was normal steel about 2.5 mm thick,

Mate I'd take that blanking plate off & forget the alloy 1.

Make sure its stainless-steel. Too many folk finding that the gasses just burn a hole right thru it in no time. Upto you tho. If you know for a fact its a really hard steel then you're maybe ok,but is it worth the gamble.

[gixer103]

Foca

Well I have rechecked every thing again & again,

took it for a test drive & it drives great up until the temp gauge reaches half way then when you put your foot down it starts to judder

& miss if you continue to drive it will then start to smoke & judder even worse it will eventually stop & not restart for at least half hour until it has cooled down,

Also when you fit the blanking plate do you leave the EGR plugged in

it is doing my head in now

[mintalkin]

cutting out when hot and not restarting until cool is usually a sign of a faulty lift pump on the TDDI

[stooge75]

I think that as well. I had an HDi that had very similar symptoms inc white smoke

[FOCA]

Foca

Well I have rechecked every thing again & again,

took it for a test drive & it drives great up until the temp gauge reaches half way then when you put your foot down it starts to judder

& miss if you continue to drive it will then start to smoke & judder even worse it will eventually stop & not restart for at least half hour until it has cooled down,

Also when you fit the blanking plate do you leave the EGR plugged in

it is doing my head in now

Is it because it is warm or because you wait untill its warmed up before you put your foot down (eg - the poor running may be nothing to do with being cold/ warm but because you "put your foot down" - if you "booted" it straight from cold would it "play up" or if you "pottered about" when warm would it be ok?)

The TDDI has a "part time" lift pump that only comes on on high demand - if the lift pump is faulty the car will run ok untill you use full throttle - nothing to do with engine being cold/ warm/ hot - if the lift pump is faulty it should show up on fault codes

Get your codes read or invest in a code reader - an f- super is about £20 online - it will tell you if the lift pump is faulty - if so the pump is about £100-120 - its in front of/ outside the tank so "easy" to change

It does not matter (much) if the EGR valve is plugged in or not if a solid plate is fitted because by fitting the (solid) plate the EGR valve is effectively disabled, if its electric you can unplug it or pnumatic put a ball pearing in it - it will stop it from opening/ wearing itself out uselessly- the valve can act as a heat shield for the plate A thick (4+mm) stainless steel plate is ideal - the closer to the exhaust the hotter it gets - to put a plate straight on the manifold it has to be thick,steel aluminium may be ok as long as it does not get too hot, (it has a lower melting point than steel and can melt through in some applications) mild steel rusts - stainless steel is best

[gixer103]

Hi Foca

The car only plays up when warm,

if you floor it when cold it runs ok & goes like stink,

tried reading codes with 2 different code readers comes up link error ??

[FOCA]

Hi Foca

The car only plays up when warm,

if you floor it when cold it runs ok & goes like stink,

tried reading codes with 2 different code readers comes up link error ??

The code readers have to have the Ford protocols (SAE J1850 PWM) and be able to read the early OBD1 that the TDDI uses, its the same plug/ socket but many readers only work on OBD2

Other manufacturers use other protocols and many forum posts forget to mention this - so your reader/s may not be compatible

OBD2 became standard in 2004, the TDDI is pre 2004 and OBD1

I bought several OBD- bluetooth adaptors to try to get torque (an smartphone/ android app) to work) but i could not find acompatible one for my TDDI

The only code readers ive actually heard of working with the Mondeo TDDI is the f- super and the Bluefin (I use the Bluefin)

Its a good idea to get your codes read/ read the codes yourself before spending money you might not need to

It will also help us to know what is up with your car!

[gixer103]

Well I ordered a F-Super code reader last night should be here on Thursday so will hopefully get to the source of the problem

will keep you posted,

[Jos7000]

Just reading with interest regarding the white smoke relating to the EGR cooler. I actually had a white smoke issue, except it only happened when cold and would stop after the car was driven for as little as 150 metres. It ran irratically/rough while smoking.

I had it into a diesel specialist who charged me £180 to test my injectors and fit a blanking plate on the EGR. The white smoke remained... well for about one more week until the engine hydraulic'd (water filled one cylinder locking the engine).

The engine was replaced and hey, the white smoke was back, I had the mechanic replace the EGR cooler and hey presto, the smoke cleared up. It really is worth checking the EGR cooler, it was an expensive misdiagnosis by a 'specialist', unfortunately it was at my expense :-(

[FOCA]

Just reading with interest regarding the white smoke relating to the EGR cooler. I actually had a white smoke issue, except it only happened when cold and would stop after the car was driven for as little as 150 metres. It ran irratically/rough while smoking.

I had it into a diesel specialist who charged me £180 to test my injectors and fit a blanking plate on the EGR. The white smoke remained... well for about one more week until the engine hydraulic'd (water filled one cylinder locking the engine).

The engine was replaced and hey, the white smoke was back, I had the mechanic replace the EGR cooler and hey presto, the smoke cleared up. It really is worth checking the EGR cooler, it was an expensive misdiagnosis by a 'specialist', unfortunately it was at my expense :-(

Its scary what Mechanics/ garages make you pay due to their incompetence for the sake of a £20 EGR cooler -

Ive read online where all the injectors etc were all replaced needlessly (by an diesel injection specialist ) at great expense for the sake of a £5 EGR blanking plate (leaking EGR valve- different issue from the cooler) - don't these people love spending your (our) money!

Good post + good advice!

[gixer103]

the F-super scanner arrived today but cant get my lap top to install the USB drivers for the scanner,

installed the software on the cd plugged the scanner into the laptop it then comes up driver software unable to install

I am running windows 7 64bit

any ideas

[stooge75]

i had the same issue with op-com & win7 (64 bit),& it drove me mental.

Have you tried downloading the drivers off internet,& running it as administrator? you might have to download microsoft VM & run xp thru it then install it. just read another guys post on another site & thats what he did

Ah try this one from talkford(sorry)http://www.talkford.com/topic/146928-formidable-and-windows-7/?p=1385849&hl=+formidable%20+windows%20+7&fromsearch=1#entry1385849 (7 posts down from top)

[FOCA]

the F-super scanner arrived today but cant get my lap top to install the USB drivers for the scanner,

installed the software on the cd plugged the scanner into the laptop it then comes up driver software unable to install

I am running windows 7 64bit

any ideas

The F-super should have been supplied with drivers compatible with Windows 7 64-bit, sometimes, older verrsions (of F-super) are sold with just 32-bit drivers (eg - Windows XP 32bit)

The older /newer versions of F-super are phisically the same, but the newer ones have the 64-bit drivers, you can download these drivers,if you don't have them its a lot easier than messing about with different operating systems

Thats a really old thred (on that other site) and things have moved on - 64 -bit drivers are available (and supplied with the latest versions) for F-super

If you cannot get it to work just borro a laptop runnig xp and use that to get your codes