New Mot Requirements ( Dpf And/or Catalysts )

[Howard1471]

I was informed when I recently took my car for it's MOT that as of 16th Feb 2014 the regulations have changed regarding DPFs and Catalysts.

Any car which is fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter or Catalyst, as standard, when manufactured, must be fitted with said DPF and or Catalyst when tested. If it is not fitted with the required item(s) it will be deemed to have failed the MOT.

I'm paraphrasing the official looking document my garage showed me. I think everyone should be aware of the change.

[Focus-Jonny]

A lot of places now that do deletes cut into the DPF and cat and gut them out or place a straight through pipe through the middle of them and weld them back up giving the illusion to an inspector that they are still in place and functional!

[mixmasterlooney]

You do know this is what the original rule was right? Officially there is no changes at all becausevthe above was already apart of an mot

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[Howard1471]

The advice I was given when I had my DPF removed was that the particulates were not tested by the MOT and that having the DPF removed would not affect the outcome of the test. Similarly when I had my car MOT'd less than a week ago the garage consulted the document and then proceeded without issue, advising me of "the change". So it's passed 2 years running.

If the rules regarding the presence of a DPF [where one is fitted as standard] has not changed then why would the Dept of transport ( or whatever they are called these days) feel the need to issue a notice to all MOT stations of a change as of 16 Feb 2014.

The important fact here is that MOT stations ( and I assume it's not just those that I have used ) have now been given the instruction to fail the vehicle.

I've started saving up for a new DPF :(

[mixmasterlooney]

The word test is misleading. The rule has always been if the car left the factory with a dpf it must be fitted at the time of mot testing that has not changed.

"Test" what test are we talking about? Dpf are not tested by any equipment for emissions like the cat on a petrol. So what test is actually done? None, except the standard already applicable visual test that it is fitted assuming the dpf was fitted at factory.

Here is an example, london busses. Some were fitted with dpf after being registered, this was a cheaper option than replacing the busses with newer models, in this case the mot test of it being fitted does not apply because it was not fitted at factory therefore if fitted at the time of mot or not makes no dufference.

For a car if it had a factory dpf it would be checked during an mot if possible, (before and now after feb) that's the old and the "new" change. The other test done is a smoke test, and this is not a dpf specific test because a diesel can smoke with or without a dpf, the smoke test is visual although it can be done by equipment.

So as far as things go there is no "new" change atm the information is just very misleading.

The main point of this rule is eliminating straight pipe exhaust systems on a car that had a dpf. If your car left the factory with a dpf and you now have a straight pipe there is no need to buy a new dpf, simply visit a scrappy and buy an old clogged up dpf for pennies, have the internals chopped out and fit the cannister to your exhaust. It will pass the mot dpf test.

1. Is a dpf fitted to the car? Well yes I can see it.

2. Does the vehicle smoke excessively? No.

No further dpf related test is carried out

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[stevegtuk]

Straight from the horses mouth

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/275427/mot-special-notice-1-2014.pdf

[Howard1471]

Thanks Stevegtuk.

"On 16 February 2014 Section 7.1 of the inspection manual will be amended to include a check for the presence of catalysts and particulate filters on diesel powered vehicles. Any vehicle where a catalytic converter or particulate filter is missing where one was fitted as standard will fail the test. "

This doesn't specify the contents of the DPF ( mine has had the guts removed and the original case refitted ) so maybe it hasn't actually changed anything in real terms.

[stevegtuk]

You'll get away with the guts removed from cat and dpf, providing the car passes the smoke test and no warning lights come up.

The other thing is, the testers arent allowed to remove anything to inspect parts, so the engine cover and under shield, may be enough to obscure their vision of the cat, so decat pipes may get away.

[wase16ll]

should be noted

DPF was not included in the test till February, Catalysts have been part of the test for many years, though in the case of Diesels, was only a visual check..DPF and catalysts are completely different systems.

As it stands, presence of DPF is only visual, but it should be noted, that in the case of goods vehicles, VOSA released an update in February that if a goods vehicle is even suspected of having the DPF removed/deleted, then it will fail the test, it is then submitted to VOSA for appeal, in order for that appeal to be processed, it is up to the owner of the vehicle to remove all barriers etc in order for the DPF to be properly assessed and tested, it doesnt state that the appeal will go beyond just a visual test but it makes it clear its down to the owner of the vehicle to prove its not been removed/gutted/deleted.

this doesnt apply to cars, but it might give a clue to how far VOSA is prepared to go to stop this DPF tampering in the future.

[wase16ll]

should also add, that in the case of Goods vehicles, it suggests that either the DPF is proved to be fitted or the tax class of the vehicle is changed to non DPF before a pass is issued

[artscot79]

after speaking to vosa they have stated its a visual check for the moment however they plan to change it next year 2015 so that gutting and rewelding dpfs will not pass the mot at present its visual they did state however that doing there mobile tests they can test the tailpipe fumes these roadside tests are going to become more common for all cars diesel and petrol and if its found to be non road legal which it will be with the dpf removed they will issue fines as for hid lights if the lenses are not correctly marked as being for hid lights and no working washer system is in place its a fail and you will require a garage to remove them fit the lighting back to normal and pay for a retest

[ChrisCooper]

Can't see roadside emmision testing being that practical really, for the main reason that emmision controls on both petrol and diesel engines tend to be more important when vehicles are first started. That's why cars doing short journies tend to have bigger problems with the emmisions control systems as they are working much harder. A modern engine when up to temperature should be pretty clean regardless of after-treatment. A DPF in particular will be doing most of it's work in the first 5 or so miles, hence why people who do regular journies of that sort of length tend to end up with them clogged. Catalytic converters also tend to be mainly needed during the first couple of miles. Unless they are going to be pulling people over and holding them for long enough for their engines to cool down then I can't see how they would get accurate readings, and anything that's going to take more than a few minutes isn't going to go down well with the public.

Either that or will they sit near or even inside carparks. VOSA might think like that, but their main interest is in heavy vehicles, so going around lorry and coach parks, or even depots, and asking people to start their engines so they can be tested is feasable, and along the lines of what the haulage and passenger transport industries are used to. Doing it for private cars I think would get controversial. Also, unless VOSA get a massive funding increase, I can't see it will effect many people anyway. In my time driving (and being driven before that), I've never been stopped by VOSA or even seen a checkpoint for anything but lorries and coaches. The only time VOSA and the police tend to be interested in private motorists is if they are doing a sting on street racing or meets with illegally modified cars.

That said, stricter emmision tests at MOT sound totally feasable.

[artscot79]

they specified they are currently in conversation with mot stations as to how and if its practicle to implement diesel exhaust fume testing the group that had this law changed are furious that the mot check does not go far enough and are currently wanting it changed again given the clout they have it will happen its just when

[wase16ll]

roadside emmission tests have been happening in london for quite a while, long before the february rule changes, both cars and goods vehicles,

as for the DPF only need to be working at colder engine temperatures, sorry, thats wrong, particulate matter is released by diesel burners throughout the temperature range, the reason they block quicker on engines that do short journeys is because the DPF doesnt get hot enough to burn off the residue...but the fact is, when engine is cold, they still prevent the PM from being released to atmosphere.

the catalyst is also required to work throughout the range, but its important that the system comes into full swing as quickly as possible..hence the need for heated oxygen sensors, to speed up the process where the catalytic can cope with emissions.

in both cases, you will get an accurate readout on emissions with a hot engine, not a cold one

people offering DPF deletes and promising no problems with passing mot's when done, are living on borrowed time...if anyone goes ahead anyway, then strongly suggest they ask them to back up those promises in writing, in other words, let them put their money where their mouth is.

[stef123]

roadside emmission tests have been happening in london for quite a while, long before the february rule changes, both cars and goods vehicles,

as for the DPF only need to be working at colder engine temperatures, sorry, thats wrong, particulate matter is released by diesel burners throughout the temperature range, the reason they block quicker on engines that do short journeys is because the DPF doesnt get hot enough to burn off the residue...but the fact is, when engine is cold, they still prevent the PM from being released to atmosphere.

the catalyst is also required to work throughout the range, but its important that the system comes into full swing as quickly as possible..hence the need for heated oxygen sensors, to speed up the process where the catalytic can cope with emissions.

in both cases, you will get an accurate readout on emissions with a hot engine, not a cold one

people offering DPF deletes and promising no problems with passing mot's when done, are living on borrowed time...if anyone goes ahead anyway, then strongly suggest they ask them to back up those promises in writing, in other words, let them put their money where their mouth is.

I dont think anyone could put that any better!

[jeebowhite]

Well said there Tony!

There is another simple test that they can do - knock knock!

if the tester knocks on the canister and there is nothing in there, they can hear that its a void and could fail the MOT on that basis, unless the Shell is left in there, this could very quickly be an easy means of identifying a DPF removal.

[ChrisCooper]

Does seem the forum has changed it's tune recently in regard to this. Wasn't long ago there were many posts advocating removal and dismissing the changes as unworkable or not a big problem. Where have you lot been when people have been previously saying "just have an empty shell"? Seems everyone is now jumping on the doom and gloom bandwagon. Probably justified, but perhaps a little late?

I've been concerned for a while but haven't wanted to speak up because of the seeming weight of opinion that it would be fine. Ok, I was wrong on roadside testing which I felt wouldn't be easy, but I've never doubted that MOTs would be able to detect removals even if careful.

Not trying to attack anyone, but can't feel we have let people down who might have decided to have removals recently based on bad advice and lack of more cautious opinions in recent months (since the changes were announced). Perhaps it's time for the forum to clap down on advocation of DPF removal, either offically or just making sure to counter alternative opinions on the subject.

[wase16ll]

i was involved in a few of the early topics when it was announced that dpf became part of the test...my stance hasnt changed from then..if you do it, then do so at your risk

i wasnt alone in that either

there were a few dismissing this new regulation, i know i wasnt alone in trying to make people think a bit more carefully before going ahead with deletes

my main issue is this standard spiel of "yes, we can delete the system, and you wont get any issues with mot" by the firms offering the service

thats just plain wrong in my eyes, they cannot guarantee any such thing unless they are willing to carry out an illegal test themselves....when the test gets stricter, many will come unstuck and you can bet your last pound these firms wont be handing out refunds.

the sooner they make it financially a major risk to anyone offering deletes, the better.

as for those that have had the deletion already, as much as i understand the need for this kind of system, i also understand the wish to have them removed..put it bluntly, they are a poor design and have little shelf life when compared to cost of repairs/maintenance for your average car user

but owners cant have it both ways..either have it refitted or reclass the tax band {noticed VOSA have gone along this line with goods vehicles).

[south_bound]

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has had a dpf removed and then failed the MOT for this reason - in theory this should be happening over the next year or so. In the meantime its all hyperthetical and not based on any direct experience. I did previously suggest one guarantee would be to get the removal job done at a garage which also does MOTs and go back there every year.

BTW, mine was removed and went through the MOT the very next day without issue (after the anouncements). The MOT tester basically said that as there is no access to the empty cannister due to the engine block, heat shield and under tray then there is no way they can even inspect visually on the Focus without taking off a load of stuff, let alone tap it for a hollow noise or look for weld marks. I'm still sleeping easy at night over it.

[mixmasterlooney]

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has had a dpf removed and then failed the MOT for this reason - in theory this should be happening over the next year or so.  In the meantime its all hyperthetical and not based on any direct experience.  I did previously suggest one guarantee would be to get the removal job done at a garage which also does MOTs and go back there every year.

 

BTW, mine was removed and went through the MOT the very next day without issue (after the anouncements).  The MOT tester basically said that as there is no access to the empty cannister due to the engine block, heat shield and under tray then there is no way they can even inspect visually on the Focus without taking off a load of stuff, let alone tap it for a hollow noise or look for weld marks.  I'm still sleeping easy at night over it.

Yeah I'm not worried about the new ruling myself as far as goes nothing has changed imo

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[wase16ll]

any garage that wishes to risk an investment of thousands of pounds in mot licence, in order they can carry on deleting are seriously light in the brain cell dept.

dont think anyone has suggested you will instantly fail under the present system checks...but your kidding yourselves if you dont believe that system check will not change as soon as they come up with a viable solution...thats the point

there is direct experience if you use a goods vehicle...remember the tester can fail it even if they only have a suspision of tampering, then its up to the owner to prove its still as was designed

[mixmasterlooney]

Goods vehicle mot's are far more strict than cars I would not compare the two it isn't just dpf the vosa is strict about with goods vehicle.

Vosa has always been very clear about the impacts on test centers rolling out new rules will have and in most cases delay or not have the rule at all. Without removing any components on the car the only logical thing to do is introduce equipment for emission testing. This is not something easily integrated into an mot test. The equipment must be certified tested and maintained plus additional cost to vosa checks on mot test centers it would bump the mot cost.

I'm not saying vosa may never introduce new ways of checking but for now I highly doubt it, petrol engines spit out far more harmful gasses than diesel and in a time when diesel engines are becoming cleaner year after year I don't see it make sense pumpin money into tech for monitoring a fuel type that is out performing petrol on cost and emissions, its not logical.

A 1.8tdci focus none dpf out perform my 16 year old 1.4 vw on power and emissions yet being 16 years old it spits out the same emissions as a 1.6 petrol today

Some low emission diesel vehicles can't even have a smoke test done with equipment because the levels are so low it won't registered I really don't see the point in so much effort trying to enforce this rule when including the extra cost and work and time.

Imagine trying to bring a diesel upto working temperature during cold winter to get a accurate reading it would never happen idling, think of the extra time this has on an mot and loss of profit to test centers. In current temperature driving around london I can go for several miles before the temp gauge even move.

All for what? Spotting the few cars with a dpf removed? Not logical but not impossible

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[wase16ll]

I'm not saying vosa may never introduce new ways of checking but for now

I highly doubt it, petrol engines spit out far more harmful gasses than

diesel and in a time when diesel engines are becoming cleaner year

after year I don't see it make sense pumpin money into tech for

monitoring a fuel type that is out performing petrol on cost and

emissions, its not logical.

common mistake...DPF do not clean the emissions/gasses, they are purely for trapping particulate matter that you only find in diesel burners...non DPF are far more harmful than petrol in many ways..when people get their heads around this then they may understand why there are some very powerful bodies pushing for tampering to be eliminated and realise that, however long it takes, they will find a way whatever the cost.

Goods vehicle mot's are far more strict than cars I would not compare

the two it isn't just dpf the vosa is strict about with goods vehicle.

that is true, but the DPF rules didnt come in till February, they are tinkering with cars, but they have put the onus on owners to prove the DPF system is intact for goods...this was a quick fix for the higher polluting vehicles, this wont be the finalised solution for goods as its no more a finalised solution of just a visual for cars.

bowing out of this and similar topics, only so much you can say or advise....will just say be very, very wary of people making promises when they have a financial interest in doing so

[Howard1471]

When the DPF was removed from my 1.6TDCi it was done for financial reasons, namely the cost of the DPF replacement. Costs appear to have come down significantly in between times so fitting a new one is far more realistic for me. This may reduce the number of people who "have" to go down the delete route.

My car has just crept in under the bar with this regulation, this year. I now know that before it's next test I shall need to have a new device fitted, if only for peace of mind.

For the sake of future readers can anyone provide links to suppliers of DPFs and or Catalysts for the Ford range (other than Ford themselves :P

[mixmasterlooney]

common mistake...DPF do not clean the emissions/gasses, they are purely for trapping particulate matter that you only find in diesel burners...non DPF are far more harmful than petrol in many ways..when people get their heads around this then they may understand why there are some very powerful bodies pushing for tampering to be eliminated and realise that, however long it takes, they will find a way whatever the cost

Yeah I didn't say the dpf clean the emission I said diesel engines have become cleaner but I could have... the mk2.5 focus has a dpf and cat in one, the cat converts harmfull gasses into less harmful gasses so it does actually clean up the emission. A dpf only however does not.

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