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Supercharger..?


BeccaaCat
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Hellooooo!

Well having just got my own flat, I think a new ST is off the cards for a little while.

Now I'm keeping my car it's got me thinking about a supercharger.. I always said a supercharger would be the last thing I'd do to her and now I have the MR155 kit, going for a big brake conversion soon and various other bits I'm genuinely thinking about supercharging her (not right now.. just at some point) and want to do some research!

So does anybody have any experience in this area? Good/bad idea? Advice? Companies that would do it?

Any comments welcome lol :)

Mk7 ZS by the way

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Only units available are Rotrex kits ( there are other "kits" but the Charger is only made by Rotrex ) and they break easily and cannot be repaired, huge money to do a proper semi reliable build too. probably needs forged pistons and rods once you start hitting big power on that engine.

If you want more power go for a Jenvey ITB kit, you wont get as much power but it's more reliable and much cheaper, easier to fit too.

ITB's look the part as well.

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I know you'd probably have to forge the internals, didn't know they were unreliable. Someone I know has a MK6 ST which is supercharged and is basically a jamsport project car (was in fast ford recently) but he's never had any issues?

What's the kind of power difference with the Jenvey kit?

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your looking at a lot of work and pushing a lot of pressure on the engine and subsequently the rest of the car. Question is, can the gearbox and clutch you have cope with the extra torque and power thats shooting through them, if you supercharger your going to then have to remap the car to cope with it, the figures might be impressive but your setup might not cope with it.

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Jamsport kits are Rotrex Charger, a lot of people have tried them on Pugs and Clio and the pulleys just break on them, bearings go etc, sealed units too.

Hasn't had any issues yet is the key thing, and when they do go wrong they go wrong spectacularly.

Jenvey kits work different, essentially they just open the inlet to open air directly via some long trumpets and you map the car to suit the airflow / length of trumpets, longer the better.

the only worry you really have is swallowing a stone and eating the filter, but as long as you keep it clean and oiled ( you have to oil the filters ) then it should be fine for 10 of thousands of miles.

You do not get huge power gains out of them, they just get the car up to max power much much quicker, such as a Clio 172 was taken to around 220BHP but it hit the max power band a lot sooner rather than waiting for it to reach 7200RPM it was there around 5K which is a huge difference in terms of drivability, more practical for honing about in too.

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I'm not looking for max power output lol its never been about that for me. Why sacrifice reliability and function for power which isn't use able?

These engines are pretty good, I mean look at all the instances of them being turned into forced aspiration- the new fiesta ST has been taken up to 270hp I believe, Ken Blocks 1.6 was pushing out 850hp but limited to 650- I know that's an extreme example but shows what these engines are capable of.

I'm not looking for anywhere near that kind of power lol, closer to the 200 mark and more torque at the lower end as mine doesn't hit the power band until over 6000 revs which takes forever to get to :lol:

At the moment it's just an idea anyway :)

Definitely going to take a look into the Jenvey kit though, sounds a lot like the kind of thing I'm looking for :)

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ITB are much easier to live with,

All you need is a cable throttle set up, the ITB's themselves, an ECU, most likely an Omex one, filter. Choose your trumpet length, get someone to fit and map it and you'll be on your way.

Shame you can't get RS2 kits tbh, they were the best thing going for a Clio, ITB's without the work and half the cost, just removed the inlet and plugged it in and mapped it.

Have you not thought about getting another car though? like ditch the Fiesta and get Focus ST? still Ford Loyalty n all, as bad on fuel ( SC and ITB's will kill any economy regardless to what anyone claims they are getting it's all lies ) but less work and when the time comes you can opt for even more power easily and cheaper?

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Second hand FST I mean, 6K will get you a decent one. which realistically is what any decent ITB build will cost, SC will be way more than that to have done properly.

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Yes I have lol the plan was to get a new Fiesta ST in august but just moved out so plans have changed lol, keeping my car for a while :)

OH has a focus ST so no point me getting one of those :p

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Superchargers are not as efficient as turbochargers because an exhaust driven supercharger (AKA turbocharger) utilizes the waste heat and pressure from the exhaust, wheras a belt-driven supercharger is driven directly from the engine, so takes power away from the engine, off the top of my head i think i remember the G60 using (wasting) 18Hp to drive the supercharger - this limits the ultimate power the supercharger can make (you will get more power out of a turbocharger, than a supercharger on any given engine- with better efficiency/ economy)

Thats why you see so many turbocharged production engines, and so few supercharged ones

The advantage of a supercharger over a turbocharger is reduced lag - which makes then suitable for events like sprint races, hillclimbs, drag racing etc, probably on the road/ circuit racing you would be better off with a turbo

Although the supercharger may seem easier to fit than a turbo, in practice it can be difficult/ expensive/ hassle, you may have to lose your AC, a remap may not be enough, and you may need another ECU (stand alone or piggy-back) that would need set up by expert(s) you may need some sort of boost control system(s) too

If you retained the original engine internals/ transmission, you may need to restrict the boost of the supercharger/ power/ torque output of the engine, which might mean you just get a realatively small improvement for all that work/ hassle/ expense

By the time you start rebuilding the engine/ trans with stronger pistons/rods/crank etc, (for a supercharger you may have to reduce the compression ratio and/ or run the car on avgas/ high octane fuel) you are talking "silly money"

So you might be cheaper/ better (more ultimate potential) to just ditch your old engine and fit an ST or RS motor (transplant) or leave your car how it is untill you can replace it - a focus ST/RS 5-pot or a Focus st3 motor would be an interesting proposition in the smaller, lighter Fiesta (this would definately need brake/ etc upgrades, as James has suggested)

I considered supercharging on one of my previous projects, did a lot of research on the subject, and rejected the idea at the time

There are other options as well, like a nitros kit, it should be easier to fit than a supercharger, and you can transfer it easier if you get another car

It is exellent that you are considering such things

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Sounds like super charging it more effort than its worth! Would turbocharging be just as difficult?

Would a 2.5 lump fit in a Fiesta? :S

Though I did actually think about taking a 1.6/2 ecoboost engine and transplanting one of them in but it will be difficult to find one for sale as they're fairly new cars! Only other downfall is I don't want to lose all the mods already on my engine as it seems like a waste really lol.

Big brake conversion is happening this month anyway as a gift from the OH so no worries there.

Nitrous kit I don't think would work for me as I'd have nowhere to put the tanks lol unless they'd fit in the spare wheel compartment? Still has to be a road car as I have LO to ferry about!

Thanks haha we all have to dream :p

Things like this I tend to research a lot and then abandon and maybe come back to a year later lol

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Nitrous is easy to fit, issue is it doesn't last long, there is a place in Farnham common that does this though, only about the size of 3 litre coke bottle and a few hoses.

Issue with fitting the 2.5 lump is you'll need custom driveshaft's which will cost more than what you'll pay for the engine and box, they'll be around £800+Vat each.

Most logical choice to me seems to just wait and save the cheddar until you can get the ST or something else tbh.

I'm wanting a bigger turbo kit right now and huge alloy intercooler but can't right now, looking at ways of doing it cheaper but know it's better to wait until I can go the whole hog ( and warranty runs out )

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Yeah I wouldn't use it all the time though, I never really race against anyone lol I just like enjoying my car.

That's why I thought 1.6 ecoboost as the whole car including chassy and floor plan is exactly the same just one has a turbocharged engine and one has a NA engine.

I don't want it right now haha I've already said that. I love my little car and despite the fact I can't afford £17,000 for a new Fiesta ST, I'm not finished with her yet anyway lol. I'd rather modify this one a bit more then move on to something else in a year or so

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Its not even about using it all the time, you get a few blasts per bottle fill and that's it! very expensive for road use and you can't leave it on anyway as isn't designed to be used in any manner other than flooring it.

Have you looked at the more conventional methods for your car, such as camming it, full big bore decat and straight through, proper cold air feed ( not the pikey stuff you buy from Demons and the like ) Polished and ported head / matched inlets etc.

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Mine already has high lift cams and dual feed intake, not looked at Port and polish but OH keeps banging on about it so I will look into that lol.

Also has a full exhaust system with sports cat, not going to decat as again i have to ferry little one around so want it to be properly insured!

It's already got like HT leads, silicone hoses, high lift cams, exhaust, dual induction feed, air filter, remap, spark plugs, short throw shifter, big brakes, braided brake lines, lightweight alloys, lowered.. I'm not sure where to go from here lol I've done everything else I wanted to do except extended spoiler and rear valance change!

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Ergo the problem with power, enough just isn't enough.

Think the only way forward is to buy a Twin Turbo Skyline or RX7 tune to 800BHP and be happy you cannot get higher outside of motorsport or Bugatti.

Even then it probably still wouldn't be enough.

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155bhp isn't exactly mass amounts of power by any standards though :lol:

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What about a 2.0 ecoboost conversion? As you're probably aware it has already been done. This is the guys thread for the build, amazing car and will outpace most MK7 fiestas (par Ken Block :P)

http://passionford.com/forum/restorations-rebuilds-and-projects/451909-tims-performance-blue-s1600-2-0-ecoboost-engine-swap-run-in-soon-to-be-mapped.html

Ideally I've been looking at buying a second car, my plan was to buy a more maturer car like the new c-class coupe or 4 series - but I do love power output and looking into buying a supra 3.0 single or twin turbo (manual obviously) for a weekend car and keeping the ecoboost for work driving to and from work, even though it's only a 2 mile trip ;)

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I suggested that alrready -

Superchargers are not as efficient as turbochargers because an exhaust driven supercharger (AKA turbocharger) utilizes the waste heat and pressure from the exhaust, wheras a belt-driven supercharger is driven directly from the engine, so takes power away from the engine, off the top of my head i think i remember the G60 using (wasting) 18Hp to drive the supercharger - this limits the ultimate power the supercharger can make (you will get more power out of a turbocharger, than a supercharger on any given engine- with better efficiency/ economy)

Thats why you see so many turbocharged production engines, and so few supercharged ones

The advantage of a supercharger over a turbocharger is reduced lag - which makes then suitable for events like sprint races, hillclimbs, drag racing etc, probably on the road/ circuit racing you would be better off with a turbo

Although the supercharger may seem easier to fit than a turbo, in practice it can be difficult/ expensive/ hassle, you may have to lose your AC, a remap may not be enough, and you may need another ECU (stand alone or piggy-back) that would need set up by expert(s) you may need some sort of boost control system(s) too

If you retained the original engine internals/ transmission, you may need to restrict the boost of the supercharger/ power/ torque output of the engine, which might mean you just get a realatively small improvement for all that work/ hassle/ expense

By the time you start rebuilding the engine/ trans with stronger pistons/rods/crank etc, (for a supercharger you may have to reduce the compression ratio and/ or run the car on avgas/ high octane fuel) you are talking "silly money"

So you might be cheaper/ better (more ultimate potential) to just ditch your old engine and fit an ST or RS motor (transplant) or leave your car how it is untill you can replace it - a focus ST/RS 5-pot or a Focus st3 motor would be an interesting proposition in the smaller, lighter Fiesta (this would definately need brake/ etc upgrades, as James has suggested)

I considered supercharging on one of my previous projects, did a lot of research on the subject, and rejected the idea at the time

There are other options as well, like a nitros kit, it should be easier to fit than a supercharger, and you can transfer it easier if you get another car

It is exellent that you are considering such things

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155bhp isn't exactly mass amounts of power by any standards though :lol:

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The weight of the car has to be taken into account, the Fiesta (ST) weighs 1268kgs, a Focus ST3 1462 (the ST2 weighs 1450kgs) the lighter weight of the Fiesta means it needs less power or it would be quicker with the same power

If you have a car with half the weight, it can have half the power and run the same 1/4 mile -

EG, a 400Hp, 800kgs Fiesta can run the same 1/4 mile time as an 800Hp, 1600kgs skyline (because the power-to-weight ratio is the same) - halving the weight is like doubling the power

bikes are the same - 150Hp is a fair bit in a 200kg bike

Thats why it would be worthwhile putting a Focus ST (5-pot or st3 ) engine in the Fiesta, the Fiesta is lighter, so would be significantly quicker than the (heavier) donor car with the same engine

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Yeah 5 pot wouldn't fit but I think an ecoboost conversion is definitely something I'd look into. Doesn't sacrifice the economics so much (I average 35 mpg anyway lol) and is cheaper/easier and could always buy a Mountune kit or a Mountune engine to keep with the theme of the car lol :p

Thanks for all your advice guys it's given me a lot to think about!

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Yeah 5 pot wouldn't fit but I think an ecoboost conversion is definitely something I'd look into. Doesn't sacrifice the economics so much (I average 35 mpg anyway lol) and is cheaper/easier and could always buy a Mountune kit or a Mountune engine to keep with the theme of the car lol :P

Thanks for all your advice guys it's given me a lot to think about!

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I saw this -

http://www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-Fiesta-ST-Big-Brake-upgrade-p/2364-mfbkr-aa.htm

and i thought of you

And this - 720hp, 900kgs - (Veyron= 530bhp/ton Feista evo = 800bhp/ton )

http://www.fiestaturbo.com/feature-cars/720bhp-fiesta-evo/

in action-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Peqo8bpYbs

it was for sale -

http://passionford.com/forum/cars-for-sale/447015-fiesta-evo-for-sale-will-take-p-x-25k-ono.html

i had no invovement in it (before anyone asks)

With a typical tuned RS-5pot producing 400Hp, and about 600 max, with fwd, the evo-engined Fiesta with 720hp and 4wd is .....well..... more

Iif you can get a v8 in a (classic) Mini you can get an ST/RS 5-pot in a fiesta (the RS would be better due to the ATB) + it would be an "affordable" option (im trying to find one that was already done, if it has'nt, thats even more reason to do it!)

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oops- double post

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Veyron will still win though, although costs 10 X the price. still it came third in the Championship.

Shows how much you have to really chuck at a car to get a winner.

Bet there are thieves currently looking at how to nick that right now though.

Epic car though, Still doesn't beat the 11 LTR engined Calibra from back in the day.

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Well spoke to the OH and he suggested the new 2.3L ecoboost that's coming out in the mustang next year and will eventually be used in the new RS.. which I don't think is a bad idea tbh

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