Ford Injector Issues 1.8 Tdci - Ford Wont Tell You About Them - Must Read

[zhivko1019]

Hi all!

I have the same problem - jittering, shaking and hesitation when accelerating slowly through, or maintaining, the range of 1700 - 2000 revs.

I had the car looked at 5 garages! Everybody claims they do injectors, but nobody so far taken them out, tested and attempted to change them. I am being referred from one 'diesel specialist' to another.

Now I have decided to check my injector serial numbers and buy new ones and replace them at a budget garage, as all those specialists couldn't do anything. Not to mention none of them 'specialists' knew about the particular TSB!

Could I please ask you for the serial numbers I should be looking at when buying the new injectors?

Could I possibly even get an eBay link?

Regards,

Zhivko

[zhivko1019]

On 9/28/2020 at 9:28 PM, Kjv said:

Hello everyone,

do someone tried the injector model 7T1Q-9F593-AB instead of the 4M5Q-9F593-AD ?

Thanks,

Alex

I would like to know what injectors should I be looking to buy.

All my injectors in my car right now are 4M5Q-9F593-AD and they don't have that other number on the 'barrel' bit - 050013, in fact they don't have any number there. So how can I know what injectors I need?

[fordfiestaa]

me too Everybody claims they do injectors, but nobody so far taken them out, tested and attempted to change them. I am being referred from one 'diesel specialist' to another.

[zhivko1019]

Good Evening guys.

So far, I have established that all of my injectors posses the cursed batch number of 050013.

So now I am trying to obtain new ones from brake yards. Problem is, none of them is willing to check the batch numbers for me before sending them off. So, as a test, I have ordered a single injector which has arrived today, but has the faulty batch number too!

Any ideas, how can I get that different batch injectors guys?

[Tdci-Peter]

14 hours ago, zhivko1019 said:

how can I get that different batch injectors

I would have thought that a decent scrap dealer or used parts outfit would know the reg no. of the car they came from. 59,10,60 plate no's should be clear of the faulty batch. I don't know if earlier injectors are 100% compatible, there were quite a few changes made to the Lynx engine around 2007. Mostly (or all?) for the worse!

[zhivko1019]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:18 AM, Tdci-Peter said:

I would have thought that a decent scrap dealer or used parts outfit would know the reg no. of the car they came from. 59,10,60 plate no's should be clear of the faulty batch. I don't know if earlier injectors are 100% compatible, there were quite a few changes made to the Lynx engine around 2007. Mostly (or all?) for the worse!

Hi mate. Well mine is 09 plate and its with the faulty batch. Diesel specialist would not even want to hear when I start explaining the problem with the batches, they “never heard of that and have 20 years experience”...

Dead end really. I bought some from a breakers yard and am currently getting them tested on a bench today.

Wondering will genuine new injectors come with the faulty batch number? Cause I’m afraid I’d get new ones and they’ll be from that batch?! 

[Tdci-Peter]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:52 AM, zhivko1019 said:

will genuine new injectors come with the faulty batch number?

Real genuine new injectors must be getting rare and expensive, I would have thought. It is over 12 years ago these batches were made, and while that basic injector design may have continued, there are so many models and variants that I doubt if the Lynx injectors continued in production for long. I would suspect that new replacements might be Chinese copies rather than VDO originals. Not that the VDO brand name is much of a guarantee after the transfer from Siemens to Continental, and the almost immediately following manufacturing problems (co-incidence? not likely!).

I would stick with widening efforts to get ones from a used engine. If they were cheap enough, you could try ones from earlier engines (2006/7), or even transit or mondeos (outside the 2008/9 range). What the exact compatibility is I do not know, the only way would be to try.

My injectors have fuelled 180,000 miles, never missed a beat as far as I can tell, and delivered 53mpg on WInter fuel, averaged over a tankfull, earlier this year

One word of caution: I have seen diagrams of the internals of these, and there are some incredibly critical small parts, and tiny metering holes. Damage from any sort of contamination is very easy. So extreme cleanliness at all stages with any part of the high pressure system is vital, or all the money & effort would be wasted.

 

[zhivko1019]

Just changed them with 4 tested on a bench injectors, new generic leak off fuel pipe. 

And now it struggles when idle? it sort of coughs?! Air in system? 

[BaldyBazzer]

My daughter has a 58 plate Focus 1.8 diesel, currently running the same issues. A Ford specialist engineer told us it's most likely not the injector (diagnostics indicate Injector 3 Fault) but they see a lot of wiring/circuit board dry joints. Remove the dashboard and re-solder any dry joints, check wiring and have ECU checked for dry solder joints. You probably want to go to a specialist for these !

Disclaimer - don't try this yourself, it's just what works for us :-)

A trick we were shown when we get 'Engine malfunction' and limp mode' as you drive along is to quickly switch the ignition all the way off and then back on, it resets the ECU and you get full power back... all without stopping. Assuming it's not a component failure but a dry joint....I cannot suggest anyone else does this as at night your lights will go off too for a second whilst you turn ignition off and back on and I guess there is a perceivable chance you could get the steering lock on. It's been successful for us on multiple occasions and we are now having it looked at by a specialist.

 

[Tdci-Peter]

On 4/14/2021 at 1:58 PM, zhivko1019 said:

Just changed them with 4 tested on a bench injectors,

When all the injectors are changed, on engines up to about 2008, the Forscan team recommend a "reset the knock sensor learned values" procedure be done. On these engines there are no calibration values to be programmed in, but the ECU has to learn the new characteristics of the injectors, and the reset procedure speeds this up. Idle is where the timings and voltages are likely to be most critical due to the small injections needed.

One problem is the knock sensor was not fitted after some time around 2008, so this may not be applicable. There is still, I think, a reset PCM adaptations option, which could be tried, but no guarantee that it won't make it worse!

[zhivko1019]

8 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

When all the injectors are changed, on engines up to about 2008, the Forscan team recommend a "reset the knock sensor learned values" procedure be done. On these engines there are no calibration values to be programmed in, but the ECU has to learn the new characteristics of the injectors, and the reset procedure speeds this up. Idle is where the timings and voltages are likely to be most critical due to the small injections needed.

One problem is the knock sensor was not fitted after some time around 2008, so this may not be applicable. There is still, I think, a reset PCM adaptations option, which could be tried, but no guarantee that it won't make it worse!

Hi mate my one is 2009. 

I have booked it for coding, however some people claim there is no coding for this make?

[FatHead1979]

7 hours ago, zhivko1019 said:

Hi mate my one is 2009. 

I have booked it for coding, however some people claim there is no coding for this make?

As @Tdci-Peter said, the injectors on the 1.8 TDCi don't need to be 'coded' but the "reset the knock sensor learned values" service procedure should be run (for the reasons outlined above).

[Kjv]

Hi everyone, no one has updates about this problem ?

About injector models :
7T1Q-9F593-AB is for Transit
4M5Q-9F593-AD is for CMAX
Don't know if it's possible to swap them. Should be interesting to know.

I have changed the faulty injector with a refurbished from a Bosh specialist but 1000km later the problem went back on this injector n°3.

 

On 4/15/2021 at 5:40 PM, BaldyBazzer said:

My daughter has a 58 plate Focus 1.8 diesel, currently running the same issues. A Ford specialist engineer told us it's most likely not the injector (diagnostics indicate Injector 3 Fault) but they see a lot of wiring/circuit board dry joints. Remove the dashboard and re-solder any dry joints, check wiring and have ECU checked for dry solder joints. You probably want to go to a specialist for these !

As BaldyBazzer proposed, do someone here tried to change the PCM ?

[Kjv]

Well i probably found a solution.

The problem could be a simple ground wire....

A friend of mine who is a car reseller told me "have you tried to put a battery cable plug on the motor and the ground on the chassis?" i had this problem on a car.

Those lasts day i made tests and the car was on fault mode at each running test (less than 10km before fault)

So I resetted the pcm and kam module with elmconfig v2. 17c and plugged a battery cable like my friend proposed and then the car was totally different... Far less glitches during acceleration (1 every 10km at 2200rpm) and no fault 40km later....

I will continue to do tests and update this thread.

[Cos1975]

Hello there, I have been reading this thread on and off for a few months.

I have a 1.8 tdci 2008 mondeo that had the faulty injectors too. I replaced them all at a £1000 cost. It's still juddering and engine malfunction light stills comes on at random. I am at a total loss with this car now. Should I be ripping out the injector loom and checking that do you think? Thing is, it's seems to be wrapped right around the engine and into the main loom. I'm at a total loss and can't afford to get rid of the car. Doomed :(

[Tdci-Peter]

58 minutes ago, Cos1975 said:

engine malfunction light stills comes on

The DTCs that will be stored in conjunction with that light are critical. It could be that there is a completely different fault, like air in the fuel, faults in the main pump or its wiring, etc, etc. Just because it is a 2008 model, it does not mean that it must be the injectors, especially as they have been changed.

When it comes to testing wiring & connectors, fiddling about with it in-situ with the engine running can reveal more than taking it out and trying to use visual inspection or a multimeter. Obviously, with a running engine you need to plan ahead a bit, and do careful investigations about what gets hot, and what moves before touching anything, but most of the wiring run will be accessible. It will follow the most direct available wiring path from the injectors to the ECU.

[isetta]

As Peter says , you need to read the fault codes.  A fault code reader from tunnel rat electronics with the extra switch on has been recommended on this forum many times. I have the WiFi one which I keep in glovebox to use with phone and a usb cable one to use with a windows laptop.  Forscan software is free for windows laptop and about 6 quid for Apple/android.

[isetta]

Ps , those fault code readers from tunnel rat do work on other makes of car also so they are good value. I can’t say they do all the functions on other makes but I used mine successfully on a Vauxhall corsa with a free of charge app.  I know there are cheaper fault code readers out there but there’s plenty of rubbish ones and you can’t tell what you are going to get. Tunnel rat is well recommended and respected on these forums.

[Cos1975]

Hi there and thankyou for the replies, I'm sorry about my ramblingessafe last night I didn't give enough info and I apologise. 

I have forscan and over the last 6 months the injectors had been failing, weeks apart,  they also were the dodgy batch so I have at least cleared that hurdle so to speak. One of the new injectors threw up a warning after a trip at the weekend so the guys at the factors replaced it under warranty and I fitted it yesterday, to still get the juddering on the way home with the eml popping on.

I forget the code as it was quite late but said circuit open shorted cylinder 3.

Cylinder 3 is the latest injector swapped yesterday which leads me to think I have a burnt out loom also. All connections to the injector etc are perfect so it seems the wiring is the best next bet. I tried tracking the loom all the way down the back of the engine, over the gearbox and then what appears to dissappear into a branched loom to the ns inner wing. I was praying there would be a multi plug or similar to unhook but to no avail unless I've missed it?

Thanks again for the replies, I will get home tonight and see if any of you have kindly replied again.

So far from purchasing this car I have

Replaced the cambelt and wet belt (out of sheer panic as it was on 110.000 and heard some horror stories about wetbelts giving out)

Replaced both rear seized calipers

And Replaced all four injectors

So you can probably see I want to keep the car now and get it sorted after £1000s spent

In theory this car should now be bullet proof :) if it weren't for the engine warning open shorted error coming on at 70 mph haha. 

Once again, thanks for replying to my sorrowful message last night and hope to hear from you soon

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, Cos1975 said:

I was praying there would be a multi plug or similar to unhook but to no avail unless I've missed it?

I doubt if there is any connector between the injector and the ECU. I believe the ECU is under the wing behind the NSF wheel arch liner on the 2008 Mondeo, the same as the Focus. That stacks up with what you saw.

On the Focus there is a big multi-plug right at the top of the engine, behind the cam cover, which does not seem to appear on the circuit schematics. I am not sure if the Mondeo has this, and I guess you have checked it if it is there. I don't know for sure if the injector wires go through this anyway, as I have no pin-out of it. The piezo injector signals are high speed, high voltage (70v typ) high current (7A quoted) signals, so they will be kept as direct as possible.

So the only place to check them is at the ECU connector, I can get a pin-out for the Focus ECU, if the Mondeo has a related Siemens / Continental ECU then it may be similar. They should be twisted wire pairs if that is any help. And a heavier gauge than the CAN-Bus, which is also a twisted pair.

ECU connectors are usually secured or protected by a headless security bolt that has to be drilled or ground out, just to add to the problems!

[Cos1975]

19 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I doubt if there is any connector between the injector and the ECU. I believe the ECU is under the wing behind the NSF wheel arch liner on the 2008 Mondeo, the same as the Focus. That stacks up with what you saw.

On the Focus there is a big multi-plug right at the top of the engine, behind the cam cover, which does not seem to appear on the circuit schematics. I am not sure if the Mondeo has this, and I guess you have checked it if it is there. I don't know for sure if the injector wires go through this anyway, as I have no pin-out of it. The piezo injector signals are high speed, high voltage (70v typ) high current (7A quoted) signals, so they will be kept as direct as possible.

So the only place to check them is at the ECU connector, I can get a pin-out for the Focus ECU, if the Mondeo has a related Siemens / Continental ECU then it may be similar. They should be twisted wire pairs if that is any help. And a heavier gauge than the CAN-Bus, which is also a twisted pair.

ECU connectors are usually secured or protected by a headless security bolt that has to be drilled or ground out, just to add to the problems!

Many thanks tdci Peter! Very informative and a great help. I had another look during the cold light of day today and although the loom from the top of engine looks in good shape, I have noticed some of the cladding has been peeled back in the past, more worryingly, when I removed the airbag again to look at the bottom bit of loom, wires in the loom are exposed, not all haphazard and hanging out ,all nice and neat and tight but...exposed.  this is now a concern for me. Has someone already been chasing a ghost I wonder. 

Somehow I have to fix it and if I have to pull the engine and everything out I will, I'm in too deep now!

I've tried the tested way of engine running and tweaking the loom at different points in the hope it would set it off but to no avail as yet. I will be sure to keep this thread alive as much as I can in the hope I may solve it once and for all.

A forscan question, I haven't re entered the new injector codes into the ecu,  the reason I haven't is when this car runs with warning it runs really well, I know another of people say do it if all four are new but... I'm reluctant to be honest. I've reset the knock sensor learned values and ran some basic checks. Is there one nugget I'm missing do you think? Any updates I could install (to at least compensate for the new injectors if nothing else)

Many tanks again tdci Peter for your help

[Cos1975]

I was meant to say airbox 

[Cos1975]

Apologies for the horrific spelling,  currently at work in the rain

[Tdci-Peter]

17 minutes ago, Cos1975 said:

I haven't re entered the new injector codes into the ecu,  the reason I haven't is when this car runs with warning it runs really well, I know another of people say do it if all four are new but... I'm reluctant to be honest. I've reset the knock sensor learned values

As far as I know, there are no calibration codes to enter with the VDO type injectors. See if Forscan actually offers the option, it is not available on the Focus. The learned values reset is the only procedure I am aware of.

Stranded cable can corrode inside the insulation, especially if water has got in. There may be no sign of it on the outside, and a normal multimeter continuity test may not detect it, the cable resistance just rises a bit, and becomes variable. You would have to use a low resistance tester to detect a fault like this. A couple of ohms could be enough to slow down the signals enough to make a detectable difference to the injections. Piezo crystals are capacitors that have to be charged to quite a high voltage very quickly, and this requires a substantial current surge, despite the fact that they measure high impedance or open circuit to a simple DC resistance test.

I was a bit confused about the airbag! My spelling is absdoerlutely aewrful too, but this site has an excellent editing facility, which I make a Lot of use of! Like Just now.

 

[Cos1975]

Thanks again Peter, so after a 12 hour shift I have to forgo the wire searches until the weekend but I will on your advice leave no stone unturned. When I returned to the car this evening I did however try a couple of things. I didn't have my laptop this time but connected the car via my forscan on mobile and it is surprising quite comprehensive.  I reset the knock sensor and then...reset the module. Once this wad done I took a 46 mile hike up the motorway,  at first it was perfect,  only 2 slight judder after about 30 miles and it cruised all the way home. I tried different scenarios,  cruise control up a steep 1 mile incline,  turned off cruise and variated the throttle to try and replicate the judder but nothing. Its left me in quite a pickle really. If it was a wiring fault how come some resets could make it behave a 'bit' better?