Car Struggling Uphill.

[Ews]

Hi guys and girls, my car really seems to be struggling going uphill. She is absolutely fine on flat stretches of road but as soon as I hit a hill it seems to lose power and everyone starts overtaking me! lol. I have a Ford Focus Edge, petrol, 1.6 MK3 reg July 2011. Only just over 24,000 on the clock. I've had the car six months and I love her to bits!

I've gone from having a 1.4 Rover 25 (which didn't have any power) to my 1.6 Focus and thought there would be a considerable difference in power and I can definitely see this on flat roads but when it comes to hills its a different story. Don't get me wrong I know that a 1.6 is not a powerful car but I was expecting it to be a little better than it is. I have this horrible hill that I need to go up every day on my way to work and my car struggles everytime.

I've been told that maybe my car could do with a service or 're-tune' whatever that means? Could there maybe not be enough fuel getting to the engine? Would I be best advised to get the car to into a garage or what? My Focus had one previous owner, perhaps they pushed the car a little too hard? I really don't know. Sorry for all the questions.

I'd be grateful for any help or suggestions.

Cheers folks, Ewan.

[jeebowhite]

sounds like its a coil pack issue or similar. If its struggling under load, I think this may be a good place to start. Alternatively I think you would benefit from checking the error codes.,

[Ews]

Ok thanks jeebowhite.

[salsheikh]

it would also be dependant on what gear you are in. If you are in say 4th/5th/6th then it maybe better to pick up speed in 3rd and then change up a gear.

[Ews]

Ok thanks. I've only got 5 gears but I'll have a go at that.

[TomsFocus]

I agree tbh, drop down a gearfor the hills. My 1.6 diesel struggles uphill in 5th at anything under about 50, they are heavy cars for such small engines, and being a petrol you won't have much torque either which is needed for pulling uphill.

The car won't need a retune...maybe if it was a 1980's model, but cars these days all have 'learning' ECUs to get the ideal fuelling. A service may help though, if it hasn't had one for a while the filters get clogged and restrict the air and fuel eventually, though I'd hope that's not the case on a fairly new car!

[Ews]

Ok many thanks. 

[Tdci-Peter]

On 25/03/2015 at 10:52 AM, Ews said:

everyone starts overtaking me! lol. I have a Ford Focus Edge, petrol, 1.6 MK3 reg July 2011

If it is the Duratec 1.6 ti-VCT engine (not the 1.6l Ecoboost), then maximum torque for this engine is at 4250 RPM. And max power not until 6700 RPM.

So it is designed to rev up the scale. I have heard others complain it does not have much go at low revs.

Use the rev counter, drop down a cog or two, and get it up to at least 4250 RPM if you want to shake off the opposition. (like Tom & Sal say.)

Or just amble along at lower RPM to save fuel. It is your choice, how you feel at the time!

If that does not make it go, then either get Forscan & do some tests, or get a tuning man/garage to have a look at it.

Post here if you want more info on Forscan.

Peter.

[Jeremyc]

22 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

If it is the Duratec 1.6 ti-VCT engine (not the 1.6l Ecoboost), then maximum torque for this engine is at 4250 RPM. And max power not until 6700 RPM.

So it is designed to rev up the scale. I have heard others complain it does not have much go at low revs.

Use the rev counter, drop down a cog or two, and get it up to at least 4250 RPM if you want to shake off the opposition. (like Tom & Sal say.)

Or just amble along at lower RPM to save fuel. It is your choice, how you feel at the time!

If that does not make it go, then either get Forscan & do some tests, or get a tuning man/garage to have a look at it.

Post here if you want more info on Forscan.

Peter.

What is it in the ford focus 1.6l mk2 petrol?

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, Jeremyc said:

What is it in the ford focus 1.6l mk2 petrol?

Could either be the 1.6 Ti-VCT Duratec, or the standard 1.6 Duratec. May say on the cam cover.

Standard 1.6 is 100PS at 6000rpm & max torque at 4000rpm.

So it also is best at quite high rpm, not quite as much as the VCT though.

(Ti-VCT means twin independent variable camshaft timing, it is a thing to optimise economy at low rpm, while boosting power at high rpm, basically)

 

[Jeremyc]

7 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Could either be the 1.6 Ti-VCT Duratec, or the standard 1.6 Duratec. May say on the cam cover.

Standard 1.6 is 100PS at 6000rpm & max torque at 4000rpm.

So it also is best at quite high rpm, not quite as much as the VCT though.

(Ti-VCT means twin independent variable camshaft timing, it is a thing to optimise economy at low rpm, while boosting power at high rpm, basically)

 

Sorry yeah non turbo. Shouldn't the max torque be at the same rpm as 100ps at 6000rpm instead of 4k? Otherwise how can the max torque be achieved at a lesser rpm when the engine is not working as hard

[alexp999]

You've got to remember on a non-turbo engine that the air in the cylinder has to be drawn in by the motion of the piston moving down on one of it's strokes.

This means that as revs increase the engine needs more air, so some of the potential torque get used to pull air in.

So the max torque figure is when the engine is at it's most efficient for pushing against the pistons, whereas power is just a measure of torque at a given RPM, so max power is the crossover point at which the torque drops below what increasing revs can make up for.

You should be able to find the power graphs online for your engine which might go some way to explain it.

[Tdci-Peter]

3 hours ago, Jeremyc said:

max torque be at the same rpm as 100ps at 6000rpm

Power (in kW) is Torque (in nm), times RPM, divided by 9550.

Because Power goes up with rpm, then even if the Torque starts to drop off after its peak, the power continues to rise.

So max Power is at a higher rpm than max torque. The region between max torque and max power is the "performance" region for that engine.

Alex (above) has also explained this in other words.

A typical torque & power curve is show here. It is not for for this engine, the rpm figures are a bit lower, and more typical of older engines, but the shape is the same.

 

Technical Note: The formula at the top assumes the power and torque are measured at the same place. For cars, the torque is at the flywheel, but power is usually measured at the road wheels. So a complicated correction factor for transmission losses has to be added. This factor should be around 0.8 to 0.95, depending on transmission type.

[Jeremyc]

On 7/28/2016 at 9:06 AM, alexp999 said:

You've got to remember on a non-turbo engine that the air in the cylinder has to be drawn in by the motion of the piston moving down on one of it's strokes.

This means that as revs increase the engine needs more air, so some of the potential torque get used to pull air in.

So the max torque figure is when the engine is at it's most efficient for pushing against the pistons, whereas power is just a measure of torque at a given RPM, so max power is the crossover point at which the torque drops below what increasing revs can make up for.

You should be able to find the power graphs online for your engine which might go some way to explain it.

Alright, So what can we learn from this information. What would be the optimal gear change if we were trying to reach an example of 100mph as quick as possible. It's my understanding that torque is more important than BHP

[alexp999]

It depends on the gear spacing, you want to try and straddle the peak torque area, for your car.

Change too early and you'll bog down the engine and not have enough torque for the next gear, change too late and you'll have wasted potential torque from lower revs.

If we are talking about uphill though, you basically want to pick the gear which puts the revs as close to the peak torque output as possible.

[Ews]

Thanks everyone for your kind replies. 

[SteveGSXR600K1]

There's a few of us on here with the same 1.6 Ti-VCT engine with exactly the same issue, It's worth going to a local Ford dealer and asking them to do a diagnostic check and also if there's PCM update available. The update made my car seem completely different, but the issues slowly come back..... and you end up driving around them. Gutted with my car, as it's a Titanium with loads of factory options and I love it apart from the power issue.

As said before, you do have to thrash it to get it to do anything half exciting, but even that's at the expense of MPG. I have to knock mine down to 3rd to do a safe overtake. If I take it easy and stick to the speed limits whilst doing a round trip to work of 50 miles, the computer's showing an average 47MPG and 450 miles at the end of a full tank to 50 miles remaining. So something must be right! I'm starting to think there could be problem with the Ti-VCT bit. Not sure at what revs this kicks in, but if I'm taking it easy, maybe it's not being used too often and not raising any issues.

The Ford garage supposedly did a diagnostics check and came up with nothing. It could be something silly like a sensor that's triggered and holding the car back. Some days it will go up an incline happily, and other days it will struggle on the same incline. It could be a temperature thing as mine runs better when the outside temp is 16C-17C'ish. When it happens, you can press the accelerator to the floor and the car doesn't respond apart from the instant MPG going through the floor. 

Does anyone know if there's a known issue with this engine and the coilpack?

[kpg]

There's a few of us on here with the same 1.6 Ti-VCT engine with exactly the same issue, It's worth going to a local Ford dealer and asking them to do a diagnostic check and also if there's PCM update available. The update made my car seem completely different, but the issues slowly come back..... and you end up driving around them. Gutted with my car, as it's a Titanium with loads of factory options and I love it apart from the power issue.

As said before, you do have to thrash it to get it to do anything half exciting, but even that's at the expense of MPG. I have to knock mine down to 3rd to do a safe overtake. If I take it easy and stick to the speed limits whilst doing a round trip to work of 50 miles, the computer's showing an average 47MPG and 450 miles at the end of a full tank to 50 miles remaining. So something must be right! I'm starting to think there could be problem with the Ti-VCT bit. Not sure at what revs this kicks in, but if I'm taking it easy, maybe it's not being used too often and not raising any issues.

The Ford garage supposedly did a diagnostics check and came up with nothing. It could be something silly like a sensor that's triggered and holding the car back. Some days it will go up an incline happily, and other days it will struggle on the same incline. It could be a temperature thing as mine runs better when the outside temp is 16C-17C'ish. When it happens, you can press the accelerator to the floor and the car doesn't respond apart from the instant MPG going through the floor. 

Does anyone know if there's a known issue with this engine and the coilpack?

Even after I got the PCM update, sometimes in the morning on first start when I set off the car jerks around like its trying to kick in but keeps missing. I live on quite a steep incline so anytime I leave the house it's an uphill battle. It doesn't happen every time and I've also realised that putting the A/C on for 30secs before setting off helps the car 'wake up' quicker. But yea seems like the vct unit is trying to kick in but keeps missing = jerky jerky.

Sent from the pub with a pint in the other hand.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, kpg said:

seems like the vct unit is trying to kick in

If you have, or can get, Forscan, it may be possible to prove or eliminate that possibility.

There are PIDs called VCTDC (Variable Cam Timing Duty Cycle) and VCTADV (Variable Cam Timing Advance). I do not know if Forscan has these PIDs, the only sure way is to connect & see if they are in the list.

The Duty Cycle is the command from the pcm, and the Advance is the resulting movement measured by the Cam sensor.

Logging these over a run may show if the pcm is trying to activate the VCT system and failing, or doing it at the wrong time. At least it should show if the power drops are remotely related to the VCT system, or are something else like coil packs.

Since the VCT system can be used (in some engines) to provide an EGR function, by creating an overlap between inlet & exhaust valves, it may be being actuated at almost any time.

[SteveGSXR600K1]

10 hours ago, kpg said:

I've also realised that putting the A/C on for 30secs before setting off helps the car 'wake up' quicker.

I thought this had to be a joke because how could this have any affect on the way the car runs. When I left work I thought I'd give it a try, and it seemed like a different car!! It actually done something when I put my foot down, a lot less hesitation, etc. I'm still confused! Maybe it is something temperature related. I've done plenty of miles with the K&N air filter in, so the car should have learnt that in by now.

[jeebowhite]

It's the behaviour of the air con, when it activates as far as I understand, the coolant is diverted elsewhere to the car, thus helps it to warn up quicker, also because air con requires engine drive, the revs are increased as standard to accommodate the combined need of standard engine power and air con use.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

[TomsFocus]

Wait - Your cars are better with the air con on!?  Mines awful, feels like 80bhp is being sucked out by the AC compressor!  

[alexp999]

Different engine but I can really feel A/C on too. The extra deceleration is like I'm resting my foot on the brakes.

Perhaps the Ti-VCT PCM over compensates or something?

[Pullock]

I have the 1.6Ti-VCT as well (albeit on the fiesta) and when switching the A/C on/off I find it virtually impossible to notice any change in the revs.

But besides that it doesn't seem to make any difference to acceleration but again that could also be due to the reduced weight.

[kpg]

Wait - Your cars are better with the air con on!?  Mines awful, feels like 80bhp is being sucked out by the AC compressor!  

Different engine but I can really feel A/C on too. The extra deceleration is like I'm resting my foot on the brakes.

Perhaps the Ti-VCT PCM over compensates or something?

I meant that if you turn the ac on, whilst stationary, for 30secs then turn it off before moving, it's makes a difference to how the car runs. IE: quicker to warm up as jeebo said.

Mine runs like A bag of crap with the AC on whilst driving lol