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In The Car For 3 Days Crash..


Ianb
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So most of you must have heard of this incident by now, bloke and his partner driving along, crash and found 3 days later (now both dead) BUT, the police had been informed of a car off the road but had not had the info passed on, so it was never checked out....

...there is big uproar by the families etc and in some ways rightly so... But...

...are we all getting a little less responsible for our actions?

I mean yes, most of us are paying taxes, which some goes to police, and therefore we sort of expect them to be there when we call/need them.. But does that leave us blameless and care free?

I'm trying to write this carefully so as not to offend, but, we might (rightly or wrongly) assume that the male driver crashed due to his own error..now granted the police should have checked, but if they wanted to, they could kind of turn around and say, "well maybe he shouldn't have crashed"

I know I sound really insensitive and maybe it doesn't apply here, but I find this sue culture we're in, is sort of allowing people to be careless because we know someone will help us out..

Slightly different scenario, but:

Tripping on a curb = sue the council.... Well, if you're walking on the moorland or a cliff, you'd watch where you put your feet, so why not normally?

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Hello,just read this and am thinking your right about a blame culture that has taken hold here in Britain, the legal profession has a lot to answer for in this respect..adverts along the lines of " if there's blame there is a claim " and somebody else is actually responsible for a mistake you made!!

The police like anybody else are human and therefore are not immune from making the odd mistake!

They are not responsible for this car crash..unfortunately I don't think anyone can explain the sudden deviation of a car travelling along a straight stretch of road?

At the end of the day the driver has made a serious hash of something and the end result is that he is now dead, and his girlfriend has now followed him after loosing her hospital battle.

The family are going to be obviously very upset over this! and some eff ing ambulance chaser(also read parasite) is going to see this as a golden opportunity to make some serious dough..pursue this grieving family and convince them that the police are to blame and therefore are responsible for assaging their anger at them by handing over what can only be described as blood

money to the bereaved family.

So !Removed! wrong!!!

Why did this crash happen in the first place...ive only seen what the BBC have shown,basically a set of tyre tracks that have been marked out by traffic cops showing a severe deviation to the hard shoulder what the hell caused that manouvre??

I wouldn't and won't speculate on the cause,but I have my theories!!

Should imagine the inquest will happen before the month is out.

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"Slightly different scenario, but:
Tripping on a curb = sue the council.... Well, if you're walking on the moorland or a cliff, you'd watch where you put your feet, so why not normally?"

I used to work with a bloke who knackerd his knee tripping on one of those water / Electrical access covers that are on the pavements. and he got a few grand from the council as the worker hadnt secured / sealed it properly. He was smug about it but these accidants happen and i dont think money should be thrown at it.

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"Slightly different scenario, but:

Tripping on a curb = sue the council.... Well, if you're walking on the moorland or a cliff, you'd watch where you put your feet, so why not normally?"

I used to work with a bloke who knackerd his knee tripping on one of those water / Electrical access covers that are on the pavements. and he got a few grand from the council as the worker hadnt secured / sealed it properly. He was smug about it but these accidants happen and i dont think money should be thrown at it.

blame the yankees for bringing the "i'll sue you" culture here

i do feel for the families but feel more for the poor lass who must have been in pain whilst lying next to her dead boyfriend. its like a horror movie.

RIP

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I must sound like a right callous a-hole (perhaps I am) but I don't mean to sound harsh... My sympathies go to the families and it must have been horrific for everyone involved, it's just I sort of worry that we're far too lazy and expectant of our wants.

I actually had an awakening moment a couple years ago when I foolishly went for a play in the snow in the car... It got bad so I thought I'd head for town because the roads home would be better... They weren't, police guiding traffic and when I couldn't get up a hill they simply told me to go away from that road, there was no "we'll help you", eventually I had to abandon my car on someones lawn and luckily my partners parents came in their land rover to rescue us. By the time they came the roads home were under a foot of snow, by the morning snow had blown off the fields and filled the roads to 6ft deep...

Where were the police to rescue me, to helicopter me to safety?...turns out they have a lot of work to do that doesn't involve just me! If I was on my own I wouldn't have called for help, I'd have walked back and who knows if I'd have made it?!?

Just basically saying "be careful, you might get missed or you might be low on their priorities compared to others". We live in a culture where we feel you snap your fingers and you get a response...this isn't always the case and we should all take some sort of responsibility for our own safety....

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So most of you must have heard of this incident by now, bloke and his partner driving along, crash and found 3 days later (now both dead) BUT, the police had been informed of a car off the road but had not had the info passed on, so it was never checked out....

...there is big uproar by the families etc and in some ways rightly so... But...

...are we all getting a little less responsible for our actions?

I mean yes, most of us are paying taxes, which some goes to police, and therefore we sort of expect them to be there when we call/need them.. But does that leave us blameless and care free?

I'm trying to write this carefully so as not to offend, but, we might (rightly or wrongly) assume that the male driver crashed due to his own error..now granted the police should have checked, but if they wanted to, they could kind of turn around and say, "well maybe he shouldn't have crashed"

I know I sound really insensitive and maybe it doesn't apply here, but I find this sue culture we're in, is sort of allowing people to be careless because we know someone will help us out..

Slightly different scenario, but:

Tripping on a curb = sue the council.... Well, if you're walking on the moorland or a cliff, you'd watch where you put your feet, so why not normally?

I very much agree with you about the sue culture, I have seen an accident on a TV program once where there was a crash between two vehicles, both parties involved were all uninjured, as soon as it was mentioned that someone had called the police, one party of people involved in the accident all jumped back into their vehicle and started clutching their backs, necks and arms feigning serious injury, which doubtless would go on the police report... all for a bit of compo.

When it comes to the first point, my view is slightly different.... the police have a duty of care and are there to provide a service, I wouldn't be so sure on saying legally speaking they could refuse to turn up without good cause (as in my view this is a complete dereliction of duty - a sworn oath each officer agreed to).

It's a bit like a police officer witnessing a robbery take place, and walking right past refusing to intervene and challenge the individual.

Good cause for refusal to attend a call would be along the lines of a house/business alarm going off many times, the police getting many calls, checking the call out, and refusing to attend the call when they are called to the address again as they suspect it is a "false alarm" (pardon the pun).

What irritates me is when I see people calling 999 on hoax calls, should be prosecuted and not just given a little slap on the wrist..... unfortunately very few are.

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We should also remember that the police in their capacity as an emanation of the state, are under a duty to protect peoples right to life under Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. This right is absolute and is not subject to certain exceptions unlike Article 8 for example.

This means that in a serious RTC, the police should attend and where necessary draft in paramedics and the fire service. The family could in theory bring a claim that the police have breached the deceased's human rights by failing to attend.

The state is under an obligation under the article to protect life by way of effective policing and a criminal justice system. The state can take a life through say armed police if that force is no more than absolutely necessary to protect the lives of others.

In Osman v UK the UK courts had decided that the police were immune from a negligence claim after the family argued the police had failed to act which led to some of the family being shot and wounded and/or killed. This immunity stemmed from Hill v Chief Constable of West Yorkshire. The European Court of Human Rights decided after careful consideration that although the police were under a duty to protect lives under Art 2, it had not been breached. The immunity granted did however breach Art 6 (right to a fair trial/hearing).

Indeed, the shooting of that chap by police at the tube station in London following the bombings went before the court and the family argued that the state via the police had breached his right to life as he was not a terrorist despite legging it from the police. The court held that there was no breach because the police were acting under tremendously stressful and difficult circumstances and the actions of the deceased gave rise to reasonable suspicion that he was indeed a terrorist and could be about to set off a bomb. The shooting of him was deemed absolutely necessary to protect others even though hindsight proved he wasn't a terrorist.

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It transpired that he legged it because he was in the U.K. illegally i.i.r.c.

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I'm not suggesting the police (or those in association) have no blame etc. The brother of the female victim is rightly hurting and upset, he is looking for someone to blame, the driver is dead, so he is not in the cross hairs, and the police, did indeed fail in their duty. However my argument is, if the male victim was driving like a pleb (unknown at this stage), then, that is; technically speaking, where the blame should land firstly and foremost.

Years ago I had an acquaintance/friend killed in a car accident, he was the passenger, he was removed from the vehicle, taken to the hospital and eventually they turned the life support machine off. Now, could we argue that maybe if paramedics had been a BIT quicker, he'd have had more of a chance? Had they not turned machines off he'd still be "alive"?.. Result, Driver convicted of death by dangerous driving....

Police are certainly not off the hook, but nobody has yet mentioned the driver...

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It transpired that he legged it because he was in the U.K. illegally i.i.r.c.

Yes your quite correct that he was here illegally, and his family got a heap of money over it...

I bet if he had been shot back home in sunny Brazil his parents wouldn't dare even mutter a single word...

They shouldn't of got a single penny,and his parents should of been escorted back to the airport and back to the hole they came from.

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Don't know about the police force in England. But I know a bit about the Irish police (Gardai) at nights there are 2 gardai cars expected to cover the whole of Meath and Meath is one of the biggest counties in Ireland for example my mams house was robbed between 9 and half 9 one evening and the gardai did not show up untill 11pm and it was alone garda no partner or anything... Also I arrived for work at half 6 last Friday and a builders car was robbed earlier that they about 2.45pm the garda were called at around 3.15 and did not arrive until 7.15 as they said they only got on duty at 5pm and there is only 4 of them 2 cover a certain district and the others cover another district both these districts were big... They had to prioritise there responses any assault they would respond to that first as he told my mam if the burglars had of been in the house when she returned (which they were well they legged it when she came back) they would have came straight there as there would be a possibility that an assault or even a loss of life could have occurred but because they legged it they seen it as she was safe enough. The police should have responded to that rtc though very negligent that they didn't

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The problem with that car fatality is that they have recently implemented a single force covering the whole of Scotland (and Scotland is a flamin'large area to cover) and unfortunately things fall through the cracks.

Even my force has a huge area to cover with a greatly reduced number of deployable Officers.

Some duties find just me and two other handlers covering everything from Exeter to Bodmin, some nights I'm the only handler in an area covering 700 square miles!

I can easily drive 300+ miles a night responding where required.

Police forces in the UK are at breaking point now and it is likely to get far worse unless the penny pinching stops right now.

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...buuttt, is 'getting worse' our own fault for becoming complacent about everything?

Don't get me wrong, you guys do a fantastic job and your safety is top priority (safety is also in numbers), but if cuts have to be made (they should be made in the paper pushing departments first), then shouldn't we all look at what we can do to assist - no more handouts for nothing, want unemployment benefits then work clearing litter or something etc so that everyone is contributing.

I can guarantee there are notorious areas in every city where "police are pigs" is probably a common saying, then ofcourse the second !Removed! hits the fan and they need the police, if you didn't arrive BEFORE they called, they'd moan about you guys!

Anyway, I've deviated from my original post, but shows how wide a topic this can be..

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Regarding cuts, the so called paper pushing departments are actually few and far between. Police staff perform a vital role in the vast majority of roles and the force and frontline officers could not function properly without them. The government seem to be obsessed with applying cuts to policing and because police officers are not employees (they are officers of the crown), they cannot be made redundant.

I'm not suggesting officers should be made redundant but they need to get tough on lazy officers that give good officers a bad name. The government is introducing new measures that will reduce an officers wage if they are on restricted duties for a long time and sat in an office doing work that a member of staff can do on a lower salary. These officers will then have to choose between a lower income and suddenly making a miraculous recovery!

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I'm trying to write this carefully so as not to offend, but, we might (rightly or wrongly) assume that the male driver crashed due to his own error..now granted the police should have checked, but if they wanted to, they could kind of turn around and say, "well maybe he shouldn't have crashed"

It sounds harsh, but I completely agree.

The first words out of my mouth when I saw the road they crashed on was "how the hell did he manage that?".

And not to stereotype, but they didn't exactly "look" like the most responsible people. I know that's a terrible thing to say, but I won't lie.

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It sounds harsh, but I completely agree.

The first words out of my mouth when I saw the road they crashed on was "how the hell did he manage that?".

And not to stereotype, but they didn't exactly "look" like the most responsible people. I know that's a terrible thing to say, but I won't lie.

Yep, what I was thinking regarding their appearance. Of course I think we're both agreeing that life is precious and it's sad that anyone gets killed and the story is sad on a whole... But to me the entire story is being read from the middle of the book onwards, they need to start at the beginning...

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If there is one thing in life I've learnt, and sometimes hard learnt is that you can't judge a book by its cover or a person by their looks weather they be handsome or unblessed.. you can never tell by looks alone!!

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It is a high likelyhood that the car was being driven in an 'exuberant' manner but any fatality however caused is still a regrettable waste.

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Hi,

I am new to this forum, but felt that this debate/discussion was very fairly balanced.

Any fatal road collision is an utter waste of a life, and so many could have been avoided.

I would love to see what exactly the Police were told about the vehicle, and I am sure that the IPCC will investigate that fully.

BUT, what about all of the members of the public who drove past that car, for a whole week, and not one of them checked it, or by the sounds of it, called it in, again....

We live in this world where we challenge everything, threaten legal action, but rarely ever put ourselves out and help each other.

My other half collapsed in the street early December 2013, at about 10:30 in the morning. People just stepped over her, and it was an older lady that actually dialled 999. Nobody wanted to "get involved". They didn't have to get involved, just call an ambulance. After a minor heart Op, she has recovered, and thanks to that lady, she got to live another day. That lady did what she did out of kindness, and that is what I would like to see more of.

Less scammers, false injury claims, and such like, and a little bit more kindness towards your neighbours, and people who collapse in the street, or the crashed car at the side of the road....

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The police should have followed up on the accident, end of. The fact that it slipped through the cracks is inexcusable, and evidence against the penny-pinching that is going on. Not turning up for a nicked bike, for example, is excusable. A RTA with potential victims, that shouldn't even be a question. 3 days that poor lass remained in that car, I would have gone for the jugular of the person who allowed that. I am not one for compensation culture, but I would damn well push for a change to ensure that was never allowed to happen again. And perhaps a few quid for next of kin (if she had kids, can't remember) so they don't have to suffer further hardship, considering they/him/her (delete as appropriate) have lost their mother.

Sent via the 'Clacks'

GNU STP

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Well said Richard and it was such a worthy speech that it reminded me of "We will not go quietly into the night!"

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I'm not saying that it's unacceptable, I just think that perhaps we should all use this (all drivers) as a wake up call that just because we live in a '1st world country' it doesn't mean we're invincible...

If you decide to put your foot down and speed, when you really think about it, do you ever think that if you crashed you may not be found? I know I don't/didn't...

All I'm saying is as at fault as the police are for their lack of action, the Driver; if driving like a chimp, in my opinion, carries a huge load of responsibility for the outcome.

I do stupid things, climb things that are dangerous etc because I KNOW that if I fall and get hurt, an ambulance will save me, therefore I'm more reckless than I should be with myself and my life!!

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I have a long post....

BUT, what about all of the members of the public who drove past that car, for a whole week, and not one of them checked it, or by the sounds of it, called it in, again....

We live in this world where we challenge everything, threaten legal action, but rarely ever put ourselves out and help each other.

My other half collapsed in the street early December 2013, at about 10:30 in the morning. People just stepped over her, and it was an older lady that actually dialled 999. Nobody wanted to "get involved". They didn't have to get involved, just call an ambulance. After a minor heart Op, she has recovered, and thanks to that lady, she got to live another day.

Richard, you hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned!!!

Police are there to support the community, and as Clive said - when you take a bleedin huge area, and throw in the resources you have, you still cant be everywhere at once.

OK so lets balance this:

Police fault:

losing the paperwork / comms, and not visiting the site after the first call

ignorance: if they were ignorant enough to choose not to respond

POTENTIALLY: responsible for not responding at all - depending how the call was made, and how it was described, if the police just did not go for whatever reason (potentially knowing life was in danger) then that is their liability and that does suggest a breach of human rights.

Police not at fault:

They cannot be there immediately to everything at everycall, much as they would like to be. Take an already crushed country, losing 30% of its overall police forces (on average), yet stretch them out beyond their already beaten patches and they are much more unlikely to manage

If the call came in to report there was a vehicle off the road, there could be another vehicle on that same road to which they are aware - confusion - human error - hardly their fault in that respect.

Public failure:

If it was me, as I always do when safe and reasonable to do so, I stop at any incident, anything that doesnt look right, and I look around, I perform first aid, and I coordinate the emergency services where applicable. the people who saw the car, should have stopped, they had a duty of humanity to stop and check all was OK, they called it in. Not a single car took on the duty of humanity, to check they were ok. If one person did at any point, they could have called for an ambulance and the police, and they could have been saved.

The public need to step up.

With my first aid training I was given a three year certificate and a public liability insurance through St John's Ambulance, so if I ever performed any sort of "malpractice" during my first aid that was later taken to court, SJA would use their insurance to pay for it all! - why? - Because its better than leaving them for dead! - So you broke a few ribs, or you punctured a lung during CPR - so the family is peeved at you for doing it and think you owe them money - so what? your family is still alive because of that action, be ungrateful as you like but remember that underlying fact.

My insurance expired in December, and I would still do it all today, I would take the matter to court, and I would give them my car, or pay them money out of my paypacket for the next 20 years if I had to, but at least I could sleep at night.

within weeks of my training and certification, I arrived at an RTA - Motorbike vs. Transit. Bearing in mind the temperature as it was late december, was around about 2 degrees celcius Biker was on the floor with potential life threatening injuries. All the cars were just doing a 180. first thing I did was flly past them all, throw the car across the road and see to the patient. I had the Mrs in the car and my 6 month old son as he was at the time. I was with the biker for about 40 minutes, the police arrived 10 minutes after I got on scene, they left me to manage the bikers welfare, and they just focused on managing the scene, they interviewed my wife and didnt even bother me once during it (we had a chat afterwards though). There was two other people there, I got to support his legs to prevent any possible injuries, and the other to maintain his head posture. When the ambulance arrived, the other ladies left, and the paramedics asked me to assist them by supporting the guys head / neck whilst they did the assessment.

I dread to think what state the poor guy would have been in if he had to wait any longer for either the ambulance and police, or the duration of time for another first aider willing to step up to the mark.

The amount of self pride for helping and being involved was the best reward for that, I lost a blanket keeping him warm - but it kept him alive. My wife has never been so proud of me for it, sure, she was stuck in a car for an hour doing not much, and the little one slept for most of it!

Seriously it annoys the hell out of me when people are critical of everyone else, when their own actions could easily have made the difference, so all the public who drove past that car, and stand up to criticise the police - shame on them. We wont know the full story, and I am sure the IPCC or the scots equivalent of it, will investigate the case. If there was mishandling of any form, they will be held to account, however if this is a case of terrible misfortune where (lets say) another car had been off the road to which the police were aware, and the handler misunderstood the situation - that's a human error, it cant be helped, but they inevitably will suffer for it.

When it comes to crashes like this, everyone should be nosey. Go in, check it out, if the police are there, and its dangerous to go stopping them of course dont be so stupid, but if you see a car down an embankment and it doesnt look right, get out, check it out, possibly save a life. You dont need any special skills for that, beyond not being a lazy goit, and having the right level of humanity!

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