Instrument Cluster - replace?

[ff2007]

Hi all,

have two questions:

Does instrument cluster need programming when replaced with another one (used)? 

Should the car work if the IC is removed?

Suspecting the IC is the issue and trying to isolate it.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[mrmetallica]

6 minutes ago, ff2007 said:

Hi all,

have two questions:

Does instrument cluster need programming when replaced with another one (used)? 

Should the car work if the IC is removed?

Suspecting the IC is the issue and trying to isolate it.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

it does need reprogramming.thats where the keys are programmed to.

ive done it on mine and will be doing another speedo with bigger screen ,hopefully when ive worked out what wrong with my car.

[ff2007]

Read that if IC has issues, it may cause transmission error messages to show up! 

Strange!

[mrmetallica]

33 minutes ago, ff2007 said:

Read that if IC has issues, it may cause transmission error messages to show up! 

Strange!

not sure about that but i know the car wont start with out cluster

[artscot79]

ic wont cause an error fault never seen one yet do that and yes you'll need a cluster coded to the car and keys to the cluster

[Tdci-Peter]

The IC is one end of the main HS CAN bus, which links all major parts of the car together. It contains a vital 120 ohm terminating resistor, and without this, or if there is a bad connection, none of the other bits on the bus (includes PCM, Steering, ABS, etc,) will be able to talk to each other properly, and all sorts of odd error messages may appear.

The IC does need coding to work.

What are the symptoms that make you suspect the IC? Repairing it may be a better option than replacing it.

Peter.

[ff2007]

2 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

The IC is one end of the main HS CAN bus, which links all major parts of the car together. It contains a vital 120 ohm terminating resistor, and without this, or if there is a bad connection, none of the other bits on the bus (includes PCM, Steering, ABS, etc,) will be able to talk to each other properly, and all sorts of odd error messages may appear.

The IC does need coding to work.

What are the symptoms that make you suspect the IC? Repairing it may be a better option than replacing it.

Peter.

Getting Transmission malfuntion and ESP system fault. Car goes into limp mode.

Most specific Trans. DTC is P0790 that means a switch malfunction! Not sure where that switch is but changed the gearbox lever as a whole unit it has an electronic board and its still the same.

All wirings have been checked and cleaned.

TCM was checked and cleaned. There was no TCM specific DTC like bad solenoid or TR sensor!

Transmission oil changed (eventhou old one was in good shape).

 

It's hard to impossible to find what the issue is!

If ABS/ESP pump/module was bad  it would throw C1288.

If IC is not the cause then only thing left to suspect on is the PCM!

 

 

[mrmetallica]

this has got me thinking if all my problems are down to a dodgy cluster. im going to programme another cluster to my car tomorrow and see how it goes

im getting engine light on abs light hand brake light staying on and now and again steering failure .

so wish me luck

[ff2007]

13 minutes ago, mrmetallica said:

this has got me thinking if all my problems are down to a dodgy cluster. im going to programme another cluster to my car tomorrow and see how it goes

im getting engine light on abs light hand brake light staying on and now and again steering failure .

so wish me luck

Did u check the fuses? 

Good luck.

[mrmetallica]

22 minutes ago, ff2007 said:

Did u check the fuses? 

Good luck.

certainly have .all ok .cant find dodgy wires so will try this i want different clocks so its ok

[simcor]

On 17/05/2016 at 11:37 PM, artscot79 said:

ic wont cause an error fault never seen one yet do that and yes you'll need a cluster coded to the car and keys to the cluster

I beg to differ artscot I have just looked at a colleagues car as it had engine malfunction and transmission error. Lots of can bus errors and vehicle speed sensor and pats immobilised.

Cleared all codes and still showing malfunction.

Eventually cleared all codes and error gone.

When a cluster is faulty it causes issues on the can network whether it be interference or no communication so should log plenty of error codes. 

When I messed with my c90 connector I had the same type of issue and lots of can error codes.

Once a module is not communicating with others it causes all sorts of issues.

[ff2007]

28 minutes ago, simcor said:

I beg to differ artscot I have just looked at a colleagues car as it had engine malfunction and transmission error. Lots of can bus errors and vehicle speed sensor and pats immobilised.

Cleared all codes and still showing malfunction.

Eventually cleared all codes and error gone.

When a cluster is faulty it causes issues on the can network whether it be interference or no communication so should log plenty of error codes. 

When I messed with my c90 connector I had the same type of issue and lots of can error codes.

Once a module is not communicating with others it causes all sorts of issues.

Replacing the abs esp pump module today. Is there a guide on how to do reprogramming?

[simcor]

I don't think the abs pump needs any coding as such of hand. It will lovably need it's adaptions resetting and purging the system of air but that might only be available in IDS. If it's new and pre-filled then it should not need purging of air.

[Tdci-Peter]

On 18/05/2016 at 10:17 PM, ff2007 said:

Getting Transmission malfuntion and ESP system fault. Car goes into limp mode.

Most specific Trans. DTC is P0790 that means a switch malfunction! Not sure where that switch is but changed the gearbox lever as a whole unit it has an electronic board and its still the same.

All wirings have been checked and cleaned.

TCM was checked and cleaned. There was no TCM specific DTC like bad solenoid or TR sensor!

Transmission oil changed (eventhou old one was in good shape).

 

It's hard to impossible to find what the issue is!

If ABS/ESP pump/module was bad  it would throw C1288.

If IC is not the cause then only thing left to suspect on is the PCM!

 

 

P0790 says "Normal/Performance Switch Circuit" in my book. If your car does not have this (And it sounds like a Focus ST sort of thing, though I can find no reference to it on the wiring diagram), then I suspect some sort of comms error (eg CAN bus error) is confusing one of the modules, probably the PCM as this is where the standard OBD2 DTCs are usually located.

Have you used a multi-module Ford specific scanner like Forscan, or just a generic OBD2 scanner? An OBD2 scanner will not pick up codes specific to the IC, or to other modules. When I had my CAN bus problem, the OBD2 scanner registered one or two codes, Forscan show over a dozen, from various modules, all complaining about faulty information in some way.

The resistance check on the CAN bus wires (Pins 6 & 14 on the diagnostic connector) is a simple and useful test of the main (HS) CAN bus wiring, it should be stable at 60 ohms (+/- not much). This tests that both ends (the IC and the PCM) are connected, and all connections in between are ok. (It will not detect if there are faults on other modules).

 

[mrmetallica]

38 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

P0790 says "Normal/Performance Switch Circuit" in my book. If your car does not have this (And it sounds like a Focus ST sort of thing, though I can find no reference to it on the wiring diagram), then I suspect some sort of comms error (eg CAN bus error) is confusing one of the modules, probably the PCM as this is where the standard OBD2 DTCs are usually located.

Have you used a multi-module Ford specific scanner like Forscan, or just a generic OBD2 scanner? An OBD2 scanner will not pick up codes specific to the IC, or to other modules. When I had my CAN bus problem, the OBD2 scanner registered one or two codes, Forscan show over a dozen, from various modules, all complaining about faulty information in some way.

The resistance check on the CAN bus wires (Pins 6 & 14 on the diagnostic connector) is a simple and useful test of the main (HS) CAN bus wiring, it should be stable at 60 ohms (+/- not much). This tests that both ends (the IC and the PCM) are connected, and all connections in between are ok. (It will not detect if there are faults on other modules).

 

what and where is the can bus and can the pcm be unplugged from the connector  ?

i had my battery box out today to look at the abs module but the nodule is right at the back so impossible to get to with out taking the abs out as well

 

[ff2007]

4 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

P0790 says "Normal/Performance Switch Circuit" in my book. If your car does not have this (And it sounds like a Focus ST sort of thing, though I can find no reference to it on the wiring diagram), then I suspect some sort of comms error (eg CAN bus error) is confusing one of the modules, probably the PCM as this is where the standard OBD2 DTCs are usually located.

Have you used a multi-module Ford specific scanner like Forscan, or just a generic OBD2 scanner? An OBD2 scanner will not pick up codes specific to the IC, or to other modules. When I had my CAN bus problem, the OBD2 scanner registered one or two codes, Forscan show over a dozen, from various modules, all complaining about faulty information in some way.

The resistance check on the CAN bus wires (Pins 6 & 14 on the diagnostic connector) is a simple and useful test of the main (HS) CAN bus wiring, it should be stable at 60 ohms (+/- not much). This tests that both ends (the IC and the PCM) are connected, and all connections in between are ok. (It will not detect if there are faults on other modules).

 

Hey Peter,

only used IDS.

Should the battery terminal be removed for measuring the resistance on those two pins?

How would I check those two pins for voltage? I just read about this voltage test aswell, not sure if it tells anything though. Should they both be 1.8v or 2.5v?

And last but not least, how would I check the 120 ohm terminator resistors PCM-HEC (instrument cluster)?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Tdci-Peter]

20 hours ago, ff2007 said:

Hey Peter,

only used IDS.

Should the battery terminal be removed for measuring the resistance on those two pins?

How would I check those two pins for voltage? I just read about this voltage test aswell, not sure if it tells anything though. Should they both be 1.8v or 2.5v?

And last but not least, how would I check the 120 ohm terminator resistors PCM-HEC (instrument cluster)?

 

Thanks in advance!

The full Ford IDS system is an impressively expensive piece of software ($1000 +), and presumably should identify all faults in all modules. But possibly not all IDS systems are the same?

There is no need to disconnect the battery. At least on my car the CAN bus went off about 30 sec after turning the ignition off. The PCM stays active for a while, I can hear it testing the EGR valve, and maybe doing other things, then it powers down and the bus goes dead.

I do not think voltage tests are very useful, at least to start with, as you can not tell where the voltage is coming from. I would just use voltage to determine when the CAN bus powered down, then switch to resistance. All CAN transceiver ICs will go high impedance when powered down, so as not to interfere with any active comms on the bus. 

A damaged CAN transceiver may not do this, but since these ICs have to meet a pretty tough spec. (something like +/- 40v on the CAN terminals to ground), damage is unlikely. Bad connections (connectors or solder joints) are much more likely.

So stick a couple of suitable probes (un-bent paper clips can work quite well) in the diagnostic connector pins 6-14, put a DMM across the pair on voltage range, turn ignition on, note reading, turn ignition off, wait till voltage drops to zero (+/- 1 or 2 mV), switch to resistance range to check for 60 ohms.

If 60 ohms, try tapping and moving various suspects, eg the fascia around the IC, the connector by the front door sill, the connector in the engine bay fuse box, and maybe the PCM. Look for any deviations.

If not 60 ohms, disconnect the engine bay fuse box big connector, see if reading goes up. If it does, then IC is the fault, if not then PCM may be the fault. As both the PCM and the IC contain 120 ohm resistors between the two CAN lines, it is quite easy to detect whether all joints are intact at least up to these resistors. And the IC is a favourite(?) Focus culprit.

Other modules on this CAN bus are harder to check. They just connect across the CAN bus at various points, and should not have any effect on it when powered down. Only diagnostic tests will work. Forscan gives access to self-test operations for various modules, I tried it for the IC, PCM & Steering (EHPS). It gave some interesting clicks & whirs, and a pass/fail result. This would show whether these modules were connected and basically working.

The CAN bus problem may be a complete red herring in your case, of course, but the resistance check is dead quick & easy if you have a DMM, and would at least eliminate a possibility.

The Focus Wiring diagram is available on this forum, but it is 130 pages of A2 drawings, and is not very easy to follow. (I recall when a car wiring diagram easily fitted on one A4 sheet!)  But if you get any odd resistances, I can extract the pin numbers for the CAN bus on the various connectors if needed.

Hope this is of help or interest.

PS: I do not claim to be a world expert on cars, Fords or CAN busses, but I am an electronics engineer with 40 years experience with computer systems, busses of all sorts, and communications systems of various kinds.

Peter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ff2007]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the detailed explonation.

DTCs are:

U2023-A0-ABS - Vehicle communication network fault, CAN communication failure between PCM and ESP module.

U1900-IC - CAN communication bus fault - receive error

U1900-EPS - CAN communication bus fault (missing messages)

P700-A1-PCM - transmission control system malfunction

P790-TCM - Normal/performance switch circuit malfunction

U0101-A1-PCM - lost communication with TCM

U0001-PCM - High speed CAN communication bus 

 

If MIL on/off in the IDS status says something important, then MIL ON is for U2023, U0101 and P0700. Other DTCs have MIL off (which I presume are a product of those ON MILs?)

[Tdci-Peter]

I think the DTCs say it all. Looks very similar to the list I had (though a bit shorter) when I had the bad solder joint on the pcb of the IC. The resistance test may confirm this.

Almost certainly a bad connection on the main CAN bus somewhere.

If it is the IC, I have uploaded a pdf with photos about removing, testing & repairing this unit.

See:

http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=38633

or look for:

Focus problem

Started by Pazza67, 9 May

on this site.

[ff2007]

Hey Peter,

I see MS CAN is measuring same way but pins 3 and 11! 

HS CAN measurements tell about IC and PCM.

What about the MS CAN measurements, what do they really tell us?

Thanks!

 

[ff2007]

Update: did the test and HS  showed 61 Ohm and MS test showed 60 Ohms. Tried moving main fusebox connector but no change in the resistance, tried tapping on IC again no change in Ohms!

Removed the main fusebox connector while measuring 61 Ohms on pin 6 and 14, and the meter showed 119.x Ohm. 

This means IC and PCM connections are good and in place?

Not sure how to troubleshoot further now! What next? 

Could it be the ABS pump? I know usually it throws C1288 which in my case throws U2023 instead. 

 

 

[ff2007]

20 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I think the DTCs say it all. Looks very similar to the list I had (though a bit shorter) when I had the bad solder joint on the pcb of the IC. The resistance test may confirm this.

Almost certainly a bad connection on the main CAN bus somewhere.

If it is the IC, I have uploaded a pdf with photos about removing, testing & repairing this unit.

See:

http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=38633

or look for:

Focus problem

Started by Pazza67, 9 May

on this site.

Looping Peter here.

[Tdci-Peter]

4 hours ago, ff2007 said:

What about the MS CAN measurements, what do they really tell us?

Update: did the test and HS  showed 61 Ohm and MS test showed 60 Ohms. Tried moving main fusebox connector but no change in the resistance, tried tapping on IC again no change in Ohms!

Removed the main fusebox connector while measuring 61 Ohms on pin 6 and 14, and the meter showed 119.x Ohm. 

This means IC and PCM connections are good and in place?

Not sure how to troubleshoot further now! What next? 

Could it be the ABS pump? I know usually it throws C1288 which in my case throws U2023 instead. 

 

 

MS CAN bus goes to less critical modules:

ARS (whatever that is), Radio, Diagnostic Connector, IC, FF Heater, Voice Control, DATC, PJB, Driver & Pass. Door Modules, Park Aid Module, CD changer, KeylessGo Module.

This list is extracted from the Wiring Drawing, and covers most options up to 2010 Model Year, not all will be present.

Fault looks less likely to be IC, as resistance looks ok. Is the fault intermittent or permanent? If the DTCs are cleared do they return on the next start, or is it some time later. Any physical symptoms in the running of the car? DTCs are never a full solution to problems, they only suggest areas to look at. They can be entirely wrong, as the software has to make certain assumptions about bits of the car that are not fully monitored.

My Vauxhall Vectra said it had a bad Mass Flow meter, but I thought it was the idle valve sticking from the symptoms. The idle valve was not monitored, so when the ECU pushed full power to the valve and the air flow did not pick up, the system wrongly assumed the valve had opened and the Mass Flow meter had not seen it. In fact the valve had gummed up and not opened.

If it is intermittent, maybe the only path is to keep monitoring the situation until it gets bad enough to give some real hard data. Intermittent problems are a Pig.

If it is permanent, then the DTCs that re-occur may be a clue, and the built-in self test facilities in the various modules may help.

If you can not access the pdf in the Pazza67 thread, I can upload it here, though it is about 2.5MB. But it will not help much if the IC is not the fault, I am afraid.

These general pointers are based on many years of fault finding in digital systems, all I can offer at the moment I am afraid. Maybe others have experience of the other likely Ford specific faults. But with all those CAN bus related DTCs, pinning it down may not be easy. Complex digital systems easily get very confused (and confusing!) when comms links start to fail.

Peter.

 

[ff2007]

8 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

MS CAN bus goes to less critical modules:

ARS (whatever that is), Radio, Diagnostic Connector, IC, FF Heater, Voice Control, DATC, PJB, Driver & Pass. Door Modules, Park Aid Module, CD changer, KeylessGo Module.

This list is extracted from the Wiring Drawing, and covers most options up to 2010 Model Year, not all will be present.

Fault looks less likely to be IC, as resistance looks ok. Is the fault intermittent or permanent? If the DTCs are cleared do they return on the next start, or is it some time later. Any physical symptoms in the running of the car? DTCs are never a full solution to problems, they only suggest areas to look at. They can be entirely wrong, as the software has to make certain assumptions about bits of the car that are not fully monitored.

My Vauxhall Vectra said it had a bad Mass Flow meter, but I thought it was the idle valve sticking from the symptoms. The idle valve was not monitored, so when the ECU pushed full power to the valve and the air flow did not pick up, the system wrongly assumed the valve had opened and the Mass Flow meter had not seen it. In fact the valve had gummed up and not opened.

If it is intermittent, maybe the only path is to keep monitoring the situation until it gets bad enough to give some real hard data. Intermittent problems are a Pig.

If it is permanent, then the DTCs that re-occur may be a clue, and the built-in self test facilities in the various modules may help.

If you can not access the pdf in the Pazza67 thread, I can upload it here, though it is about 2.5MB. But it will not help much if the IC is not the fault, I am afraid.

These general pointers are based on many years of fault finding in digital systems, all I can offer at the moment I am afraid. Maybe others have experience of the other likely Ford specific faults. But with all those CAN bus related DTCs, pinning it down may not be easy. Complex digital systems easily get very confused (and confusing!) when comms links start to fail.

Peter.

 

Yes, tried clearing DTCs but they do show up again. This issue with car going into limp mode and showing those 2 messaged on dash, started when engine was cold (that means oil was cold and everything associated with that), that happened when car was either stationary or moving!

Once the engine was warmed up, reaching operating temp, those messages and mode were cleared by restarting the engine, and then, I could drive all fine!

Now, that became constant, issue is appearing even with the engine is warmed up!

Important info: when car was running idle (without errors) at 0.8 RPM, when errors appear on dash, RPM is increased to 1!

 

[Tdci-Peter]

20 hours ago, ff2007 said:

Yes, tried clearing DTCs but they do show up again. This issue with car going into limp mode and showing those 2 messaged on dash,...

The full list of DTCs you gave was informative, in that most were directly connected to CAN bus problems. If the only DTCs now regularly appearing are related to the TCM, then it may be the TCM module is faulty. I guess the two messages on the dash are, or are connected to U2023 (CAN failure PCM to ESP), and P0790 (TCM switch malfunction).

But.. If more CAN related DTCs are appearing inside the system (even if not show on the dash), then none of the individual DTCs can really be believed. Failure of any one module on the HS CAN bus can corrupt messages on the whole bus.
 

DTCs you gave were:

U2023-A0-ABS - Vehicle communication network fault, CAN communication failure between PCM and ESP module.

U1900-IC - CAN communication bus fault - receive error

U1900-EPS - CAN communication bus fault (missing messages)

P700-A1-PCM - transmission control system malfunction

P790-TCM - Normal/performance switch circuit malfunction

U0101-A1-PCM - lost communication with TCM

U0001-PCM - High speed CAN communication bus 

 

The PCM could be faulty, it could still be the IC, or TCM or EHPAS etc. There are self test routines in most of the modules, which can be initiated by Forscan, and I presume by IDS. But I do not have the vehicle specific knowledge to pinpoint a likely suspect. I would repeat the CAN bus resistance tests from time to time, the fault seems to have originally been temperature dependent, and may still be intermittent. Faults have a knack of hiding away as soon as a DMM or 'scope goes anywhere near them, I know to my cost!.

Just a thought, how are the earth connections from battery to body & to engine. I do not know what the car is, if diesel, the glowplugs put a lot of current down the engine earth cable, as does the stater & alternator on all cars. Poor earths can corrupt the high speed data links. Measuring the voltage drops on these links under heavy electrical load (all lights, fan, de-misters, etc), with engine running, is the best test.

If all fails, perhaps a local auto-electrician or specialist may be able to help. I do not think the average garage will do, they may just change expensive modules on a semi-random basis at your cost till it works!

Peter.