Falling out of love - Engine issues

[cbirchy87]

Hi all, Currently having issues with my UK 2005 Ford Foucs Mk2 1.6 Sport Petrol.

Having issues with my Foucs in the last 4-6 months.

When I start my car cold in the morning or cold when I finish work about 70% of the time my Imobiliser LED flashes rapidly, but the engine still starts. I have to quickly turn off the car and on again before the engine cuts out. Then drives fine.

If i stop the car when shes warm and try to start the card again the imoibliser LED will flash rapid, the engine will crank but not fire. I then have to wait about 10-15 mins for the car to cool before I can get her running again. Normally at this stage I will get a powertrain warning. I never get these warning during a cold start.

Over embassing at service stations on long jorneys.

I have wired up my ODB device and im getting the following.

P0562 - Powertrain - System Voltage Low
P060C - Powertrain
P1260 - Powertrain - Theft Detected - Engine Disabled

PCM Fault? transpoder fault? any ideas?

Please help

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, cbirchy87 said:

have wired up my ODB device and im getting the following.

P0562 - Powertrain - System Voltage Low
P060C - Powertrain
P1260 - Powertrain - Theft Detected - Engine Disabled

PCM Fault? transpoder fault? any ideas?

 

2005 Focus, suspect no 1 is the Instrument Cluster (or dashboard, aka IC). They are notorious for developing bad solder joints on these cars.

It certainly causes immobiliser problems, and a wide range of other errors. This is because the IC is one end of the main CAN bus on this car, which goes to the PCM via the other underbonnet modules. It is also one end of the low speed CAN bus that links all the body modules, and is a bridge between the two. It also handles most of the immobiliser (PATS) functions.

I have written quite a few posts about this. Wiring & connectors are other likely causes.

A full diagnostic system (I guess you have just used a generic OBD2 scanner) may reveal a lot more codes. You will find a lot about ELM327 & Forscan on this site, which together provide a very comprehensive diagnosis & maintenance tool.

For ELM327 see:

http://www.spanglefish.com/TunnelratElectronics/index.asp?pageid=516992

One of these will pay for itself in no time.

you ill also need a program called Forscan, its free and you can get it from

http://forscan.org/download.html

I have uploaded a pdf about a repair I did to my IC. A simple resistance check on the CAN bus is outlined there. There is a lot more Info in the rather long "Instrument Cluster - Replace" topic, including what connectors are in the line from PCM to IC.

See:

http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=38633

If a deeper scan reveals more CAN bus errors, or errors in other modules, then faulty IC (or wiring between IC & PCM) becomes much more likely than faulty PCM. PCM faults tend to show up on OBD scanners because almost all of the generic (internationally standardised) codes are PCM related. But there are many Ford specific codes that a program like Forscan can read.

Post here if you want more help, or have additional info.

Peter.

PS: Just had some additional thoughts:

Check battery volts, and battery connections & main ground wires (to engine & body). Low volts on starting could be it.

Quick look at P060C does link it to PCM faults. You need to ensure full diagnostic info is obtained before replacing or repairing PCM or IC. Still worth check wiring & connectors though.

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Tdci-Peter
Add PS

[cbirchy87]

Thank you for the in depth reply. I will get the scanner. I'm using a bluetooth unit at the moment. Is the IC easy to remove?

[Tdci-Peter]

The IC is very easy to remove in principle, two bolts above the steering column, and tangs that hold the top. But the top can be well jammed in, and you have to be careful not to break the screen. More info in my pdf.

Check the Forscan website (the link above takes you there) to see if they recommend (or condemn!) any particular bluetooth ELM. The quality of the Chinese ELMs varies a lot, most are ok but some are useless, and the wireless ones can be more problematic than the serial or USB ones.

A "modified" ELM has a switch on the side that allows connection to the Ford MS-CAN bus (the car body bus from IC to GEM that I mentioned above). Forscan site has full details. You do not really need modified ELM for this problem, which seems to be in the PCM, IC or main CAN bus, but it might be useful in future.

I will look out for updates.

[pky]

Any chance the battery is knackered?

 

I had PATS error codes, codes that my car had been stolen, low system voltage and engine malfunction fault. I thought it might be a cluster fault. I changed the battery and that sorted it. 3 years and no problems. Get your battery checked, you never know.

[cbirchy87]

Hi everyone!

I am thinking of replacing the battery.

OK I have connected the car up to Forscan These are the results

Config

PCM - Powertrain Control Module
Part number: 5M51-12A650-HG
Software version: v4 2004-07-05

DTC Codes

PCM P060C-68 - Internal Control Module Main Processor Performance
PCM P0005-00 Fuel Shutoff Valve A Control Circuit/Open

I tried to run the PCM - on demand Self-Test, This stopped at 20% 
Error Message
Test has been interrupted, Please contact developer

would resetting the PCM help? .

[Tdci-Peter]

To me, the PCM is starting to look like the prime suspect. But it is too early to jump to conclusions. That is what a main dealer would do, no time to do otherwise, and just replace the PCM at your expense.

First try to rule out battery problems: Was the test done with engine running or just ignition on? Can you check the battery volts with a multimeter? Should be 14v to 14.6v with engine on fast idle (about 1200rpm), falling slowly to 12.3 to 12.7v with engine & all electrics off.  And are these old DTCs that happened during the last start?.

To answer the last, save the log file if you have not already done so, to keep a hard record of the info. If the engine needs to be running for the test, leave it running.  Reset all DTCs. Re-run the DTC check & self-test. See if the same errors occur, when there is no engine start between the Reset & the tests.

What I am trying to ensure is that a power dip during engine start is not upsetting the PCM. (Though the PCM should be designed to operate down to well below 9v battery voltage, at least for starting, as this can be expected for cold cranking at low temperature, even with a good battery.)

If battery can be ruled out, and the same DTCs (esp. 060C) keep occurring, and self test keeps failing, then I think it must be the PCM, though I am no expert on PCM problems.

Worth looking into the Fuel Shut off valve error, though this may be the result of a fault in the PCM. It seems unlikely that a Fuel Shut off valve error would cause termination of the self-test, or generate 060C. I just Googled "Focus P0005", but nothing very useful came up, the best I got is something to do with meeting the needs of nurses!

If anyone else reading this has better ideas, please say. I hate the idea of replacing a good PCM to find it was something obvious that I have missed.

Peter.

 

[cbirchy87]

Thank you again Peter!

Ill run forscan again and save the log all reset all the DTC codes and reset all adaptations. Then run the test again. I was able to find a little more on the P0005 code, link below

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/p0005-obd-ii-trouble-code-fuel-shutoff-valve-a-control-circuit-open-by-blake-griffin 

ill post my findings.

Luckyl I can test my battery at work, I have a multimeter there, Personally i hope its the battery.

 

[cbirchy87]

I also found this in regards to P0005

" Circuit Open means that a component or sensor in a system is deprived of the reference voltage it needs to work. Causes of open circuits are many and varied, but for the most part, this type of code is caused by broken wiring, poor connections across electrical connectors or previously repaired wiring, loss of ground that prevents current flow, blown fuses, defective relays, faulty switches, or any of a host of other issues and problems that prevents the flow of current through wiring. "

[Tdci-Peter]

The yourmechanic link was quite informative, but not really helpful in that ECM (or PCM) is a possible cause.

If you can locate the fuel shut-off valve (assuming it exists), and if this DTC persists, then it may be possible to test it.

 

[cbirchy87]

OK voltages

13v before a start
15.5v when engine is on with air con on full.

I tested the battery when the car fails to start, the voltage is 13v then drops to 9.4-9.6 when cranking!!!!!!

is the battery at fault here?

[Tdci-Peter]

Where were these voltages actually measured? At the battery terminals, or in some other way. I use the 12v outlet (cigar socket) sometimes, but it will give different results due to voltage drops in the wiring.

15.5v does sound rather high if it is at the battery terminals.

If the 9.4v is for a warm start (warm oil etc, and battery warm & recently been on charge, ie engine running a few minutes before the start), then it is a bit low. It would be a lot lower on a cold start. And that could upset the PCM.

Run engine to charge, then turn engine off, monitor battery voltage (at the terminals, direct on the lead battery post itself if possible), turn ign & headlights on, see how quickly battery drops. It should drop to about 12v quite quickly, then hold, and not go below about 11.5v even after a few minutes.

If battery fades away quickly, it is duff.

If battery is ok, suspect connections (inc earths to body & engine), or suspect overcharging (alternator problem?), 15.5v does not sound right to me. My car never goes above about 14.5v. But a duff battery that is not accepting charge could go to 15.5v I guess.

 

 

 

[cbirchy87]

I completed the test after i had driven for about 20 mins, so it was all warm. I tested it all the the battery terminals itself. i will nip out and double check. 

[cbirchy87]

ok, 

Ranging from about 15.72 idle. 13.33 when engine in "on" with full beam and air con. 

On a failed start during a crank it will drop as low as 6.7 the multimeter will then read 7.2 then 9.6 but the car still fails to start. Had everything on for about 3 min and the voltage drops to about 12.1 when keys out the car. 

all tests completed at battery terminals. I also cleared out the DTC before the voltage tests.

 

Thanks again

[Tdci-Peter]

5 minutes ago, cbirchy87 said:

drops to about 12.1 when keys out the car. 

Not quite sure what this meant. Headlights presumably won't be on when the key is out of the car? Did it drop below 12v with engine off, but ignition & headlights on? (Assuming headlights will light with the engine stopped, they do on all cars I have used.)

Anyway, 15.7v and 6.7v both seem very wrong. I guess the cranking was a bit lethargic at 6.7v. Definitely sounds like a new battery would be a good idea before any more tests on the PCM.

[cbirchy87]

12.1 was with the lights on, radio on, fans on. with keys not in, would only be parking lights. I will grab a new battery and hope for the best. what would the voltage be on a crank?

[Tdci-Peter]

1 minute ago, cbirchy87 said:

what would the voltage be on a crank?

I think about 10v to 11v with a good battery & a warm start. Down to 8v to 9v for a really cold, winter start, but you should not see that in June!

[cbirchy87]

OK, so I've replaced the battery. 

All electrical issues have now stopped!!! I have tested this over a 10 mile run with the new battery, stopped the car and turned it over again, It started first time with no powertrain light.

It sounds amazing starting up, a lot quicker then the old battery. 

I just wanted to say how thankful i am for your help! *sending man hugs! 

I hope you have a great weekend!

[Tdci-Peter]

Thanks for the feedback. Really good news, lets hope it stays that way

[pky]

Glad you got it sorted hopefully!

[cbirchy87]

Thanks Andy! seems like I had the same issues that you did, starts like a new car now :D 

[artscot79]

normal readings are 14.4 idle barely dipping with rear screen on to 14.2v if readings are higher than that its either an incorrect battery fitted a faulty battery or the smart charge is at fault the focus will throw up all weird electrical issues if the battery is having issues