What is this noise?

[Focus 115]

Vehicle Info:

MK1 Ford Focus (2004). 1.8 TDCi with just over 100,000 miles registered on the clock. Owned the car for just under two years. 

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Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could help me distinguish what exactly this noise is and what I should do to rectify it/prevent it from being noisy. I'll give you a bit of backstory regarding the vehicle.

 

Backstory:

Six months ago, I was driving along through town and upon changing gear and accelerating, the revs were increasing on the gauge unusually (not matching the road speed). This was after driving for over an hour without taking any breaks, most of which in was start-stop traffic/congested areas. I got to my destination, left the car for a couple of hours and returned to it and there issue did NOT occur again. That was the start of it all. Over the next few months, the issue became more frequent, nearly causing me an accident when I pulled out into the overtaking lane on the motorway and struggled to reach adequate speed. 

This issue hasn't occurred to me in quite some time, must be at least a month or so, but I don't drive long distances, and I'm sure it would happen again if I were to drive it on a long enough journey. Now, here's the strange part. The car has became increasingly rattly upon idling. I first thought it was the engine internals, because that's what it sounds like when you're in the driving seat with the windows up. Once you rev the engine in neutral gear, the sound increases in speed and loudness. 

Around a month ago, I had driven around 40 miles and parked up, leaving my engine idling. The rattle sounded much louder than usual, so I thought it would be a perfect time to capture this footage on my phone, so I did just that. You can watch the video below and listen for yourselves. Keep in mind, this was idling in neutral at the time. 

 

Video of the noise/issue:

 

 

^ In the footage, I was recording from the passenger side front wheel arch where the noise occurs. That's also where the gearbox is situated, which makes me think it has something to do with transmission. 

I should have revved a little bit so you could all hear the noise increase in speed and loudness, but I was alone at the time and was unable to capture the noise if I was in the driver's seat. Apologies if the quality is poor too. Oh, and please ignore the baldy tyre, I'm replacing both front ones this weekend. 

Personally, I had a feeling in my mind that this issue was related to the flywheel. The only reason I doubt this though is because, I depress the clutch pedal and there's no unusual vibrations through the pedal or the noise doesn't change at all in terms of loudness. The only sound is a slightly noisy clutch release bearing. 

 

I'm keen to get some ideas as to what could be causing this. This car has been my pride and joy, and it's my first car. I've put a lot of money into this car and I'm debating whether or not I should trade it in towards a car on finance. I don't really want to, but I don't want to be throwing money towards my Focus in order to fix this issue either.

Would really, really appreciate some suggestions. 

Thank you! 

 

 

 

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, Focus 115 said:

The revs were increasing on the gauge unusually (not matching the road speed)

That surely has to be clutch slip. Once it starts, it usually slowly worsens. I suspect you may have adjusted your driving (perhaps unconsciously) to avoid it lately. You might as well be brave, and open it up fully on a hill, and see if it happens again. It will be more likely to happen just after a gear change or pulling away.

So clutch is likely to be knackered. Rattle on idle could be related to the worn clutch, or it could be the DMF. Needs looking at by a clutch specialist really. They should be able to give a price for a clutch change, with & without DMF, And whether the DMF is likely to have gone. Then you can judge how much the car is worth now (not much!), and how much it would be worth with a good clutch.

 

[Focus 115]

17 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

That surely has to be clutch slip. Once it starts, it usually slowly worsens. I suspect you may have adjusted your driving (perhaps unconsciously) to avoid it lately. You might as well be brave, and open it up fully on a hill, and see if it happens again. It will be more likely to happen just after a gear change or pulling away.

So clutch is likely to be knackered. Rattle on idle could be related to the worn clutch, or it could be the DMF. Needs looking at by a clutch specialist really. They should be able to give a price for a clutch change, with & without DMF, And whether the DMF is likely to have gone. Then you can judge how much the car is worth now (not much!), and how much it would be worth with a good clutch.

 

Thanks Peter, I knew I could rely on you to give me a good response, haha. 

I'll try opening it up the next time I'm going up a hill, but to be honest, I've been driving heavy-footed the occasional time and this issue still hasn't occurred to me in about a month or two. Strange that. The rattle which was captured in the video was the loudest it's ever been, but since then the noise has been quite mild. That's what confuses me as to why the issue hasn't worsened since it started around 5-6 months ago. My car has its good days and it's worse days (days where the rattle is louder, which isn't very often). 

I will probably end up stripping it apart when I get the time. Just worried in case I order a clutch kit and then realise it needs a flywheel too. May as well replace both to be on the safe side.

Instead of taking a car out on finance and paying in monthly instalments, I'm considering taking out a £2,000 loan and fixing all of the issues with the car and then putting the rest towards upgrades (lights, bhp gains, etc.). I know this may seem silly seeing as it's a 12 year old car, but it beats spending £7,000 or so on a car that I won't fully own. 

There's another issue as well. Whenever I'm driving along at a steady speed (doesn't matter what speed but normally 3rd gear or higher) and don't have the accelerator pedal depressed, as soon as I put my foot back on the accelerator, the car will give a sudden jerking motion. It sort of seems like it's chugging a bit but it's still going and hasn't let me down. This issue has been occurring for the past month now. First impressions make it seem like the issue is fuel-related, like a bad injector or perhaps the fuel pump, but I can't be so sure. 

So far my car requires two front tyres, has a leaking thermostat housing, coolant seepage from around the water pump area, possibly new brake lines (beginning to show signs of rust), rear brake caliper, front droplinks, front and rear brake discs + pads and maybe even 3 new calipers in total, because the bleed nipples are completely rusted and I'm unable to loosen them to perform a brake fluid change. Sounds awful with the amount of work it requires, I know, haha. 

[Tdci-Peter]

19 minutes ago, Focus 115 said:

this issue still hasn't occurred to me in about a month or two

Maybe some oil got onto the clutch, & has burnt off now?

I am no expert on DMF noise, but it is supposed to be quite bad, often happens on engine start & stop, and there may be iron filings visible inside the starter motor hole. (motor removed).

I endorse keeping older cars going, I have no plans to replace my 10yo heap until something really bad goes wrong. But there are limits, and yours is getting close, unless you find repairing it satisfying (enjoyable is too strong a word, I expect!)

Pick up from over-run could be EGR valve. Not sure what type the Mk1 has, I think it is vacuum. Try disabling or blanking it, unless done already?

Water pump leak sounds bad, you need to price that up before proceeding, though if you can get & fit a good used one, or just replace a seal, it might be ok.

Bleed nipples: Get the caliper off & into a vice at comfortable working height, use a tee bar socket, penetrating oil (does not do much really!), quite a bit of force combined with firm, controlled tapping with a hammer. And keep at it, it may take time. Freezer spray on the nipple may help. Heat is problematic (fluid & seals). It is about applying max. torque, with some impact, minimum side force, and time. And judging how much force is too much!

 

 

 

[Dave_TDCI]

Focus 115 is this noise louder when the engine is cold? Often if it is related to the DMF the noise is loudest when the engine is cold and then starts to decrease as it warms up although never fully dying out. Also do you notice and vibration through your clutch pedal?...If so that's a real tell tell sign for DMF issues.

[Focus 115]

On 11/08/2016 at 2:00 AM, Tdci-Peter said:

Maybe some oil got onto the clutch, & has burnt off now?

I am no expert on DMF noise, but it is supposed to be quite bad, often happens on engine start & stop, and there may be iron filings visible inside the starter motor hole. (motor removed).

I endorse keeping older cars going, I have no plans to replace my 10yo heap until something really bad goes wrong. But there are limits, and yours is getting close, unless you find repairing it satisfying (enjoyable is too strong a word, I expect!)

Pick up from over-run could be EGR valve. Not sure what type the Mk1 has, I think it is vacuum. Try disabling or blanking it, unless done already?

Water pump leak sounds bad, you need to price that up before proceeding, though if you can get & fit a good used one, or just replace a seal, it might be ok.

Bleed nipples: Get the caliper off & into a vice at comfortable working height, use a tee bar socket, penetrating oil (does not do much really!), quite a bit of force combined with firm, controlled tapping with a hammer. And keep at it, it may take time. Freezer spray on the nipple may help. Heat is problematic (fluid & seals). It is about applying max. torque, with some impact, minimum side force, and time. And judging how much force is too much!

 

 

 

I hope that's the case. Still a bit sceptical that it may happen tomorrow, next week, or even a month from now. I wish there was a way to know for sure. 

Oh, and I attempted going up a hill and doing what you said; nothing out of the ordinary. The car pulled well in several different gears and no signs of the rev gauge or speedo rising erotically. 

I've watched several videos of people capturing footage of their noisy cars, and the comments all suggest that the noise is due to the flywheel being knackered. My car doesn't suffer from most of the symptoms though, like a vibration through the clutch pedal, or any of that. I'm tempted to replace the flywheel just for piece of mind.

Repairing is satisfying in some cases, but you're right, it's far from enjoyable!  I'm planning on repairing the essentials in order to keep it going, then progressively sorting out all of the other underlying issues. The car was fine when I first purchased it (apart from a knackered turbo), I plan on getting it back to that state. :-)

When I first purchased my car, it was chugging out a lot of black smoke upon acceleration. I poured a bottle of Techron diesel treatment through the fuel system and it seemed to fix the issue, along with blanking the EGR valve. I bought another bottle of the treatment yesterday and since using it, the jerking motion hasn't occurred and the dead-spots have been extinguished (my car was dead when I changed up a gear and was below 2,000 revs). Fingers crossed!

Also, I have a brand new water pump and gasket sitting in my garage. Never got around to fitting it because it came as a part of my timing belt kit, but the water pump is driven by the auxiliary belt and I didn't have to remove that belt when I was completing the timing belt job. 

Thank you! I may eventually try that. It's not the biggest of concerns at the moment, but once I have everything else sorted, I will sort out the seized caliper nipples. The brake pedal is decent but the fluid is very dark. I suppose leaving it for a little while longer should be okay. 

Thanks for your response again, Pete!

 

On 11/08/2016 at 11:50 AM, Dave_TDCI said:

Focus 115 is this noise louder when the engine is cold? Often if it is related to the DMF the noise is loudest when the engine is cold and then starts to decrease as it warms up although never fully dying out. Also do you notice and vibration through your clutch pedal?...If so that's a real tell tell sign for DMF issues.

Funny enough, the noise normally occurs when the engine has warmed up. When the engine is cold, it's not that loud, and sometimes you can't hear it at all. Once the car warms up then it becomes increasingly louder. No vibrations or judder through the clutch pedal either. 

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, Focus 115 said:

no signs of the rev gauge or speedo rising erotically.

That's a shame.

An Erotic rise of revs or speed sounds rather good

[Focus 115]

5 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

That's a shame.

An Erotic rise of revs or speed sounds rather good

Whoops! 

Hahahaha, I'm in stitches. I suppose that's one way to describe my speedo! Wrong choice of words, my bad. 

[Tdci-Peter]

3 hours ago, Focus 115 said:

one way to describe my speedo

Until that one, the best Typo I had seen here was that someone had a dodgy contact on an airbag sensor. They said they were praying with contact cleaner. I replied that spraying contact cleaner rarely has much lasting effect, and praying might be more effective!

But the really spooky bit is that I was thinking of that event (from weeks ago), just minutes before I checked this site, and saw your reply. Scareeee.

Back to reality for a moment. I have had two cars with slipping clutches. In both cases, the progress was from slip on an ambitious get-away or rough gear change, to slip on full throttle on a hill, to having to be very gentle with the throttle on any pull-away, and changing down on all hills. And that progress took just a few weeks.

Your case does not sound the same. Looks like whatever happened has gone away, or receded for the present.

Re the dreaded DMF: The consensus (of two!, or 3 counting you), seems to be that it may not be DMF. There is no real advantage in dealing with this problem in advance, so unless the clutch still has to be changed, I would forget it!

The Techron (not heard of that before, must look it up) is interesting. I have tended to regard these treatments as snake oil, but do I think that if a car has a fault that does match the treatment capability of the product, then it will work. It is just that then hype takes over, and the treatment is recommended for all sorts of other, unrelated, ailments.

Have you tried the Italian clear out system: Max power, high revs, for as long as is practically & (semi-) legally possible? I do try to get my car up to at least 3000rpm at max throttle once a week, but there are not many places it can be done. Uphill on a dual carriageway is best. I do not recommend driving like this as a normal practice, it is dangerous, wasteful, and will wear out the engine!. But diesels do seem to like this treatment on an occasional basis.

In the meantime, just enjoy driving your Focus when you can. I think it is a nice car to drive.

Peter.

[Focus 115]

17 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Until that one, the best Typo I had seen here was that someone had a dodgy contact on an airbag sensor. They said they were praying with contact cleaner. I replied that spraying contact cleaner rarely has much lasting effect, and praying might be more effective!

But the really spooky bit is that I was thinking of that event (from weeks ago), just minutes before I checked this site, and saw your reply. Scareeee.

Back to reality for a moment. I have had two cars with slipping clutches. In both cases, the progress was from slip on an ambitious get-away or rough gear change, to slip on full throttle on a hill, to having to be very gentle with the throttle on any pull-away, and changing down on all hills. And that progress took just a few weeks.

Your case does not sound the same. Looks like whatever happened has gone away, or receded for the present.

Re the dreaded DMF: The consensus (of two!, or 3 counting you), seems to be that it may not be DMF. There is no real advantage in dealing with this problem in advance, so unless the clutch still has to be changed, I would forget it!

The Techron (not heard of that before, must look it up) is interesting. I have tended to regard these treatments as snake oil, but do I think that if a car has a fault that does match the treatment capability of the product, then it will work. It is just that then hype takes over, and the treatment is recommended for all sorts of other, unrelated, ailments.

Have you tried the Italian clear out system: Max power, high revs, for as long as is practically & (semi-) legally possible? I do try to get my car up to at least 3000rpm at max throttle once a week, but there are not many places it can be done. Uphill on a dual carriageway is best. I do not recommend driving like this as a normal practice, it is dangerous, wasteful, and will wear out the engine!. But diesels do seem to like this treatment on an occasional basis.

In the meantime, just enjoy driving your Focus when you can. I think it is a nice car to drive.

Peter.

 

Hahaha , that's a good one. Witty response from you as well! 

I suppose I will just have to put this problem to the back of my mind. What's really bugging me though is the fact that I've got all these plans to modify my Focus to make it one of a kind, but unfortunately I've just had to postpone these plans in case my DMF fails on me. I suppose I may proceed with my plans and hope for the best! If it ever comes to the DMF failing, I should, hopefully, have enough money to pay for replacement parts. 

Would it be worth carrying out a solid flywheel conversion? Just a thought, but I'm not sure if I will go ahead with this, because I've heard from people saying that they have experienced a number of problems afterwards. There are some people that have succeeded in carrying out this conversion, but the way I see it is, if your car was originally fitted with a certain type of flywheel, it was installed for good reason, and your car won't perform as well with a part which wasn't supposed to be implemented. Just food for thought, though!

To be honest, I had the same mindset before I started using the treatment. It really is great stuff, but does cost £20 a pop! You have to have above a quarter of a tank before emptying the contents of the bottle into your fuel system. I had just over half a tank, and I was pleased with that because the less fuel I have in the tank, the less diluted the system cleaner would be, if that makes sense. Perhaps that's just my own logic. 

Oh yes, I have tried that Italian method before, never heard of that name being given to it though!  I do quite a lot of motorway miles, especially returning home when it's early hours of the morning, meaning there's little-to-no traffic around and there's three open lanes, so you can see what I'm getting at, haha. I wouldn't do this at any other time of the day though, especially when you're in the fast lane and you never know when someone's going to misjudge your speed and pull out in front of you!

I shall, thank you! It's been a pleasure to own one, and since owning one, I've decided that I'm a Ford man, through-and-through! In the future, I may own an ST Mondeo or go for something newer if I can afford it, such as a new-shape Fiesta ST, Focus RS or perhaps just go back in time and go for an ST170! 

Onwards and upwards with my Focus! I'll probably create a thread in the next few months, updating everyone on the progress of my Focus' build. 

Thanks Peter!

[Tdci-Peter]

On 13/08/2016 at 4:50 PM, Focus 115 said:

Would it be worth carrying out a solid flywheel conversion?

Not unless you know the existing one has failed.

And even then the advantages are marginal. A DMF can last >100k miles, they don't fail that often. It is just that people often complain bitterly (& loudly!) when they do go, so failures get noticed. I too have heard of problems, eg with vibration on the clutch pedal, after fitting a solid flywheel.

Diesels combine low rpm with high peak torque, due to the rapid combustion of the fuel, and the DMF is designed to smooth this out, reducing stresses on the crankshaft and transmission, as well as making driving smoother.

I always use very light throttle below about 1500rpm, changing down whenever the engine sounds at all laboured. I only ramp up to full gas at about 1900rpm, the max torque speed for the car.

Re. rapid combustion, and "diesel knock", that is part of the diesel efficiency advantage: Get the fuel converted to heat right at the start of the power stroke, and it allows the maximum conversion of heat to power during the stroke. Equals more power for less fuel. Add the high compression ratio, and lack of a throttle valve, it makes the Diesel cycle the most efficient of all heat engines.

I look forward to hearing about future progress.

Peter.