Intermittent Limp Mode with P062E

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

On 8/27/2016 at 9:26 PM, Mutti82 said:

Hi! I have Mondeo 2.0 TDCi 140ps, year 2011. For almost A year, for some reason it goes intermittently into limp mode, ALWAYS gives DTC P062E regarding to Injector bank 2 driver perfomance issue, power loss or ground issue, also power supply/regulator circuit inside ECU.

Symptoms have occured at 99% of the cases when it's been wet weather and roads, raining hard or car has stayed for example overnight in humid weather. And 100% when accelerating.

When engine turned off and then back on, limp mode goes away... sometimes for the next 2000km... but usually lets me drive about 20m, then limp mode again and needed to restart engine 5-15 times before it settles and works like a charm. Though sometimes even 20 restarts haven't solved the problem. Best way to clear the issue has been idling the engine in park for 15min. Something gets to dry a little, because symptoms only when wet??

Has anyone had this kind of situation? What could be possible causes? Bad Injector? Wiring harness issue, but where? Faulty ECU circuit or software? Ford mechanic and also one independent car electrician have been tried to figure this out, no success. 

Ps. Somewhere between march 2011 and december last year the PCM module cover box was opened and it had been totally available for all mud, snow, dirt and water splashes. I've owned the since june 2014, we noticed open cover box last december. 

Pps. Sorry if my english is bad, i'm from Finland. Decided to ask from UK cause nobody in finnish Ford Club can help.

Hi Guys. I had a similar problem with my 2011 Mondeo 2.0 tdci 136PS. In principle it was almost the same as with Mutti82 (but gives DTC P062D Injector Bank 1). I exposed the engine control unit in front of the left front tire and was amazed at what I saw: The engine control unit is in a plastic housing with a cover (for protection). The lid wasn't closed properly as the plastic has likely warped over time. At the bottom of the housing there was a small hole to drain off condensation, which was blocked by the penetrating dirt. I then simulated a rain shower and poured a can of water over the windshield. The water flowed out very strongly precisely above the engine control unit and the housing briefly filled with water. That means the whole engine control unit was temporarily under water in every heavy rain and probably caused my problem. I closed the cover of the housing as well as possible and fixed it with a sealing band. I also enlarged the drainage hole in the housing a little so that no more dirt could collect. The whole thing was 4 weeks ago and I never had an error message or limp mode again.
Sorry for my bad English. I come from Germany and absolutely wanted to share my experience with you. Maybe it helps someone! I thank this forum for even giving me the idea to look for the engine control unit.
Greetings from Germany, Sascha

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Ok, command back! A few weeks later after heavy rains I have the problem again! The engine control unit is completely dry during this time. So it must be something else. After the rain it shows me "Motor malfunction" and outputs the error P062. Since the error still only occurs after it has rained and the car was standing there, I assume a cable / electronics problem. If I let the car run and start again at some point, the error is usually gone. During the error, the car jerks or even goes into the limp mode. Strangely enough, I have no problems reversing ...
Does somebody still have an idea? Thanks and Greetings

[Tdci-Peter]

On 7/12/2021 at 7:32 AM, i_like_my_Bullterrier said:

after heavy rains I have the problem again! The engine control unit is completely dry during this time.

Two possibilities:

1) Water is getting into a connector or the wiring harness and causing the problem.

2) Humidity is the cause. Once electronics has been subjected to wet, or just damp, conditions for more than a very brief time, there will be some corrosion, and deposits of dirt and residues from evaporating water on the pcb. When completely dry, these residues are good insulators and have little or no effect. But they are hygroscopic (absorb water from humid air), and become conductive when damp. This can connect signals together on a PCB, and cause havoc with complex electronics. If the electronics is potted (encapsulated in resin), it may offer very short term protection, but will make it worse over a longer period. Once moisture penetrates the resin (which it always will, given time), it can be impossible to reverse. Drying in an oven may give at least a temporary cure, but may not last long.

 

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Thanks. I will probably have to look at plug by plug and check for corrosion, or deliberately put it under water so that I can possibly find out where the fault is.
I just don't really know where to start because I've already checked everything in the engine compartment 😞

Are there any other control units that are located in explosive areas?

Could it be that the engine control unit was damaged by the previous water damage? Can you simply exchange identical control units or does something have to be taught in?

[Tdci-Peter]

12 hours ago, i_like_my_Bullterrier said:

Could it be that the engine control unit was damaged by the previous water damage? Can you simply exchange identical control units or does something have to be taught in?

Yes, it is quite possible that water has caused long lasting damage that shows up in humid conditions. Drying out the ECU in a warm dry location (airing cupboard?) might help, and if it did help it would tend to confirm this possibility.

Changing an ECU is never easy. PATS keycodes will have to be programmed in, and possibly several engine parameters (injector codes, EGR valve position learning, etc.). The connector is usually held on by a security bolt also. Since changing an ECU is the easiest way to defeat an immobiliser and steal a car, Ford deliberately make it hard!

Looking for error codes may help narrow down the problem, P062 does not sound like a valid code though. But due to the cost and difficulty in changing the ECU, I would continue to investigate or try to rule out other causes first.

 

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

I thank you. At the moment it is unfortunately a little difficult to concentrate 100% on the car. But what I can confirm: It hasn't rained for 2 weeks and I had no problems at all. A few days ago the first rain shower and "whoops" the error was there again ...

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, i_like_my_Bullterrier said:

But what I can confirm: It hasn't rained for 2 weeks and I had no problems at all. A few days ago the first rain shower and "whoops" the error was there again ...

It won't be much consolation, but I can't really see a cable or connector being that sensitive to a bit of humidity. I assume no visible water entered the engine bay. On the other hand, an electronic circuit board that has been contaminated with corrosion residues could well fail just by a humidity change from say 60% to 90%. No visible water is needed, just the extra vapour in the air.

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Now I have the problem even if it has not rained for several days. After a 10-minute drive with the engine jolting and going out when starting, everything is okay again. I think I'll take the engine control unit out and swap it for another ...

[Tdci-Peter]

14 hours ago, i_like_my_Bullterrier said:

Now I have the problem even if it has not rained for several days.

It looks like Germany has been having similar high pressure weather to the UK, with big day/night temperature swings. Might be even bigger in Germany. These can cause condensation under the bonnet as well as heavy dew. Most likely to happen in the morning when the sun starts to warm up the ground and surroundings, but the engine & other parts under the bonnet stay cold. Then the extra moisture in the warming air condenses on the colder parts. So if the problem happened in the morning after a cold night with heavy dew, it makes humidity affecting the ECU (aka PCM) more likely.

Do you have Forscan? - You will need something like this to re-programme a replacement ECU.

I just googled DTC P062D, and to my surprise found a Ford Transit with this error, that had water ingress in the PCM, and (very surprising) finished with an apparent cure after changing the PCM. So it certainly seems possible that PCM damage can be linked to this DTC. See:

https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=209373

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Thanks again for the tip. I have now removed the engine control unit and sent it to a car electrician. They can read out the control unit and tell me whether there is a fault on it and, ideally, repair it right away. I will report again.

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

The auto electrician allegedly found "defective areas" on the control unit circuit board and repaired them. The reason for the defect was probably "overvoltage". I then reinstalled the engine control unit and was able to drive for 2 days without any problems, until the first rain overnight ...
I had the same problems with the same errors again. I'm still waiting for feedback from the electrician, what ideas he now has on the subject.

But what I noticed now: If I start the car and still have the gearshift lever on "P", then the engine jerks. Same with "N" and "D" ... But if I set it to "R", then the engine suddenly runs smoothly and I can drive backwards without jerking. As soon as I switch to "D" again to drive forward, it jerks again. Anyone have an idea on this?

[Tdci-Peter]

4 hours ago, i_like_my_Bullterrier said:

The auto electrician allegedly found "defective areas" on the control unit circuit board and repaired them. The reason for the defect was probably "overvoltage".

That wording would raise my suspicions! Overvoltage is usually very difficult to diagnose, components subject to modest overvoltage tend to die suddenly but quietly, with no outward sign. And it affects individual components, not areas. Corrosion due to water can affect areas, leaving potentially conductive visible residues on the pcb, and corroded joints.

I don't know much about auto transmissions. They have an electronic module (TCM is the usual term), and information about gear selection etc will be available to the ECU via the CAN bus, not via direct wiring. A faulty switch in the transmission, making intermittent contact, might cause some engine speed variations, but would give different error codes, probably stored in the TCM, not an injector code stored in the ECU.

Are you using a diagnostic system like Forscan that can read codes from the TCM? Many generic scanners will not do this. Is P062D the only normal error code, or are there lots of U codes, or any transmission related codes?

When in R, I guess it is possible the ECU operates in a different mode, optimised for torque at low rpm, not for power. Then whatever is causing this misfiring is not used, perhaps. But that is just a wild guess, TBH.

 

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

I am currently using a device from iCarsoft, but yesterday I ordered the ELM327 adapter for Forscan and will now deal with this software.
The errors about the device from iCarsoft were so far:
P0263, P0272, P0606, P060C, P062D, U0401.
I ran the car again yesterday and the engine shook terribly. What I also noticed now: When I press the brake pedal, the shaking gets worse ... I also read yesterday that many Focus and other models from Ford probably had problems with wiring harnesses and corroded cables.
I will now send the engine control unit back to the electrician. He assured me to check it again and, if necessary, to repair it under warranty if necessary. At the same time I'll remove some components from the engine to get to the wiring harnesses and look at the cables ...
I'm slowly running out of ideas 😞

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, i_like_my_Bullterrier said:

The errors about the device from iCarsoft were so far:
P0263, P0272, P0606, P060C, P062D, U0401

3 of the codes relate to Cylinder balance or injector problems. 2 are indicating a faulty PCM. The U0401 (Invalid CANbus data) can probably be ignored, it is likely to be a result of the others.

Faulty injectors, or faulty wiring to the injectors, could cause the 0263, 0272 & 062D errors, but I can't see they are likely to cause the PCM fault errors, 0606 & 060C. If the engine runs smoothly in reverse gear, then that makes injector or other engine or engine sensor problems even less likely. A faulty injector or injector cable would be equally obvious in reverse, unless the problem was very subtle.

On the other hand, a faulty PCM could easily cause all 5 of the P errors, either directly though software checksum tests & hardware self-tests, or indirectly as faulty hardware or software attempts to run the engine. The PCM is aware of gear selection & brake operation, so can respond to them, and if it has internal faults the response can be incorrect. Add in the known water contamination of the PCM, and it seems right to concentrate on that unit.

The only other likely cause I can think of is the wiring & connectors (12v power and earths in particular) between the main fusebox and the PCM.  It is never easy to check out wiring: visual inspection of connectors, contact cleaner spray, and wiggling cables around while running the engine to try to detect any changes are what I would do.

The fault that comes to my mind is corrupted maps. As I understand it, a map is look-up table that takes relevant inputs, and has stored values for the relevant outputs like injector timings & actuator PWM duty cycles. When the engine is running properly, these maps are often continuously modified to self adjust for wear and changes, but if corrupt, they can not be self-mended. However that is just one of rather a lot of possibilities.

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

In the meantime I have partially exposed the wiring harness and checked it for damage. I haven't looked at the whole wiring harness yet, that would really be a mammoth task. So far I haven't found anything suspicious. Today my control unit came back from the electrician and I'm going to assemble it tonight. According to the electrician, they overlooked an error during the first repair and have now fixed it. I don't know if I can believe that, but it will show ...
After the installation, I use the car intensively and will report whether the error persists!

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

The car ran fine for about a week with no problems. When my wife drove me to the hospital for an operation, it suddenly started again ... After my stay in the hospital, I sent the control unit back to the electrician and he found another fault in another place. After the repair and "stress test" on the computer, an error occurred again. Result: unrepairable!

I was then offered a replacement device. This is still on the way to the electrician, who will then clone it and send it to me.
After receiving it and after an extensive test period, I will get back to you. I finally hope that this will come to an end!

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

OMG! The electrician said he couldn't find the fault and the engine control unit could not be repaired. I was offered a replacement control unit for an additional fee. On the one hand, I was promised that it would fix the error 99% of the time. On the other hand, repairs would no longer be carried out in the event of an existing error, since the error would then have to be somewhere else.
You can guess three times what happened to me after installing the replacement device ...: Same as before! Now I have an expensive replacement device and the car is running even worse than before. I can no longer drive it at all. The funny thing is: the engine still runs smoothly in reverse ...
I now doubt the repairs that have been made and am considering calling in a lawyer. Unfortunately, it won't repair my car. I think now I have to think about how I can get a non-driving car to a Ford workshop and let them do the job ...

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Hi again. Brief info: Lawyer was involved, but I canceled it after careful consideration and a few conversations. The value to be sued for was not to be equated with the effort and work. Book the whole thing now as "***** happens".

After a month of downtime, I wanted to activate the Mondeo again after Christmas. The original control unit was installed again and the car suddenly ran again as if nothing had happened. Then, in mid-January, he resigned spontaneously and without prior notice and went out with me while we were driving.
Had to be towed first. At least it came to a Ford workshop now...

No error could be read out there because you could not "get into" the control unit. According to their diagnostic device, ALL the vehicle's modules were damaged (which can't be the case). I offered to bring the replacement device over so that they could possibly continue with it. After all, this was readable and new software was installed and all modules were retrained. Wiring harness was also measured and found to be intact. Ultimately, nothing concrete or meaningful was found. I can only continue to drive the car now and hope that it might have been defective software...
To be continued...

[Tdci-Peter]

7 hours ago, i_like_my_Bullterrier said:

I offered to bring the replacement device over so that they could possibly continue with it. After all, this was readable and new software was installed and all modules were retrained. Wiring harness was also measured and found to be intact. Ultimately, nothing concrete or meaningful was found. I can only continue to drive the car now and hope that it might have been defective software...

If I understand this correctly:

The original ECU seemed to fail intermittently, fine sometimes & useless at other times.

The replacement ECU with the cloned software never worked well enough to even drive the car.

The replacement ECU, after a visit to a Ford dealer workshop where it had proper Ford software loaded into it, seems to be working ok.

I am not entirely surprised that an amateur attempt to copy software did not work, it is a very complex mass of code and data. So hopefully the fault was in the old ECU, and the new one will fix it.

The CAN bus has a big weakness. It is multi-drop. This means all modules on one bus are directly connected to one physical pair of wires. Short circuit or low impedance type problems on any one module can bring the whole bus down, and as this bus is vital for diagnostics, it is impossible to identify the location of the problem without disconnecting all modules to isolate the problem. With a point to point bus like USB, the bus should always work up to the faulty node, making diagnosis possible. Point to point buses can also run much faster than multi-drop. It was a bit of a mistake standardising on CAN for automotive use!

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Quote

The original ECU seemed to fail intermittently, fine sometimes & useless at other times.

Yes that's right.

Quote

The replacement ECU with the cloned software never worked well enough to even drive the car.

Yes and No... Compared to the original, it only worked for a much shorter time and then had stronger failures.

Quote

The replacement ECU, after a visit to a Ford dealer workshop where it had proper Ford software loaded into it, seems to be working ok.

Yes, until now!

(Knock on wood 3 times...)

All I can do now is drive on and see if the problem comes back...
According to the mechanic, the next step would be to replace the wiring harness (€1600) and/or a new control unit (€1300)...
If that's the case I'll have to seriously consider selling the Mondeo as the repairs start to outweigh the car's value.

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Hello again, it's been a month now and I've ridden over 1000km. So far no significant problems. 2x the car just went out right after the start, but then I could start and drive again as normal. When quickly changing from D to R when cold, I noticed a kind of "lock" for 1 or 2 seconds that wasn't there before... So it shifts, but the car doesn't drive for that small moment. Maybe that has something to do with the new software?!
Otherwise there have been no problems so far.

[Nforcer]

Mutti or Sascha, can you please advise what was the issue in your case, got similar case with my Mondeo MK4 2012 Powershift and i dont know what to do 😞 errors P0766 and P062D and limp mode.... thanks in advance!

[i_like_my_Bullterrier]

Quote

So far no significant problems. 2x the car just went out right after the start, but then I could start and drive again as normal.

This problem has also been fixed. It turned out that the intake hose from the air filter was loose and was drawing in outside air. Since then the Mondeo has been running without any problems!

Quote

Mutti or Sascha, can you please advise what was the issue in your case, got similar case with my Mondeo MK4 2012 Powershift and i dont know what to do 😞 errors P0766 and P062D and limp mode.... thanks in advance!

In the end it was the control unit with faulty software. The error was probably copied from the original control unit to the replacement unit. When you tried to reinstall the software on the original control unit, it didn't work. Only uploading to the replacement device worked and solved my problem.

I don't know what you have already done and tested. So I would just try to do a software update. That would be associated with the lowest costs and little effort for the beginning.

Sorry for the late reply. I hope it helps you.

Edit:

I read your other question and I'm wondering about the "rain" part. It all started with moisture for me too!

Remove the left front tire and remove the mudguard from the fender. The control unit sits in a plastic housing in front of the tire. In my case, I could tell that the case must have been completely submerged (from dirt and splashes). Probably because the drain hole is too small and was blocked by the dirt. If you can prove moisture there, then I would immediately guess that the control unit is defective.

[Nforcer]

Hello Sascha, haven't got no more problems yet, just some ABS&ESP randomly coming on and off, thanks alot for your assistance, i will also check the ECU if that's the case, i never tampered with any software with the car yet, so i hope i wont get any more issues.