Diesel low power in cold weather

[andy1741]

Hi Guys,

With winter setting approaching the morning are getting much colder and this seems to be affecting my car at the start of my morning commute. The last few morning have been about 10 degrees. There are 2 stop signs before leaving my housing estate, at both of these the car seems to struggle to move after it has come to a complete stop almost like its about to stall but keeps moving slightly. Even with my foot to the floor.

After that there's no issues and operates as normal. 10 degrees isn't nearly as cold as it can get so I was just wondering if there's any tips for driving in the winter? I had thought about getting an additive such as http://www.stp.eu/en/products/fuel-additives/diesel-winter-treatment unlike a lot of other additives I would be able to see immediately if this is working or not. Other than that only think I can think of is to let the car idle for 5 mins before I start my journey

[mjt]

The first thing that comes to mind is that the glow plugs might be shot. I've no experience with this engine but I believe the plugs stay active to aid combustion while the engine is warming up.

[alexp999]

Does sound like a glow plug issue, does it start ok?

Turbo charged engines usually like colder weather as the air is more dense (so more oxygen) and the intercooler is more effective.

On a diesel there are no spark plugs, so if the glow plugs are not warming up the block enough, then it could struggle.

[TomsFocus]

Its direct injection guys, you don't need the glow plugs to start or run.  They stay on purely to reduce emissions on the 1.6TDCi.

The cold map is limited to reduce stress on a cold engine, yes its annoying lol.

 

[alexp999]

You'll still be loosing power to a cold block, glow plugs help warm it up quicker.

The cold map still shouldn't make it feel like it's going to stall.

[TomsFocus]

It feels like its going to stall because you're not used to giving it enough throttle as it doesn't need it when warm, the cold map really is awful on these, can't get a smooth pull away at the first couple of junctions in the cold, I try to roll round them in 2nd where possible.   

I ran mine for a few days about this time last year with no plugs after they burnt out...made no difference to startup or running with none (unplugged), broken ones or new ones.  When they do fail you get the engine malfunction message as well. 

[alexp999]

I had a DV6 Fiesta and never noticed anything like that though...

[TomsFocus]

Hmm, that's interesting, the Fiesta's are only 90bhp iirc?  So different mapping amongst other things.

It seems to be a 'normal' fault on the Focus', I complained about the same thing when I first got mine and was just told it was normal...  Annoyingly you can't even floor it to get a cleaner pull away because then the ESP jumps in and fights you.    

[trailertrash]

@andy1741

In another thread you mention that most of your driving is 3-4 mile trips with the occasional 50 mile.  If it was mine I'd take it for a good long blast along a dual carriageway/m'way to 'blow the cobwebs away' - a term used, I think, in the other thread to another poster. (Also known as an Italian tune-up  )

Run it up to near max revs through the gears as you join the m'way, then exit and rejoin to do the same again a few times.

I did note in the other thread that you've had the DPF removed and that you use Redex periodically.

[alexp999]

3-4 mile trips with a diesel, eek!

[andy1741]

My understanding of the glowplugs is that they heat the block which if not heated in the cold would absorb combustion and prevent ignition. The car starts absolutely fine and there's been no difference in the ignition. This tells me that if the ignition is unaffected it is not related to the glowplugs.

29 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

 

It feels like its going to stall because you're not used to giving it enough throttle as it doesn't need it when warm,

 

I feel like this is the answer. This has also happened to me in the past with previous cars and not even diesels but it just seems worse in the focus. This is also almost definitely related to cold weather as this has happened phenomena has happened 2 of the 3 times I've used the car this week, Monday and today. Wednesday morning no different to usual and it also wasn't as cold.

7 minutes ago, alexp999 said:

 

3-4 mile trips with a diesel, eek!

 

Only 2 or 3 times a week I swear!  I make up for it with a long drive on the weekend!

[TomsFocus]

The glow plugs heat the cylinder rather than the block.  But the injection pressures are so high on a DI it really doesn't matter, the fuel is atomised very well and the cylinder pressures will create enough heat on their own until ambient drops to minus figures at least.  It'll start and run without them no problem, you may just get a few more particulates when cold, which is obviously not good for the DPF (and the environment lol).  You need heat in an IDI because the injection pressures are a lot lower, fuel isn't atomised well so sticks around the cold cylinder walls and you've gotta heat the precombustion chamber or it'll never catch lol. 

I have also wondered (but could be completely wrong here!) if it's the smart charge alternator taking extra load from the engine after a cold start, as it's the same sort of power loss as you get when the AC is switched on.  I'm sure that's also down to emissions reducing mapping as there's no way the compressor should take that much power away, around the early 00s cars you never got the 'brick wall' effect from switching AC on!!  I know it's not cold enough yet but I keep meaning to check the alternator load after a cold start when you've got heated screens, heated seats, lights, aux heater etc all sucking power...

[andy1741]

4 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

I have also wondered (but could be completely wrong here!) if it's the smart charge alternator taking extra load from the engine after a cold start, as it's the same sort of power loss as you get when the AC is switched on.  I'm sure that's also down to emissions reducing mapping as there's no way the compressor should take that much power away, around the early 00s cars you never got the 'brick wall' effect from switching AC on!!  I know it's not cold enough yet but I keep meaning to check the alternator load after a cold start when you've got heated screens, heated seats, lights, aux heater etc all sucking power...

Very interesting. I would generally have the AC on, rear demister, lights and radio on in the mornings.

[alexp999]

The funny thing is that while it might reduce power output, high load on the AC generally helps warm up time as it loads the engine.

That said, having hot air blowing in to the cabin just sucks the heat right back out of the engine again, lol.

[TomsFocus]

I would definitely try leaving the AC off next cold morning and see if it's much better.  I know it has benefits with demisting but it does take a huge amount of power in the summer, I wouldn't want to try it from a cold start in winter lol! 

I agree with Alex about the cabin heat, I can drive an entire half hour trip through town with the heaters on in the winter and never see the temp gauge hit 90!   I was under the impression they had an electric aux heater but I'm not so sure now.

[goldtail77]

I have a 2014 MK3 1.6TDCi, live West of Aberdeen on a hill, no not Westhill. Where it will be colder than most.

I've never had any issues like described here. Evan after a full day at work, right on the coast near sea level. I don't have any problems (no downhill sections to help).

Despite it being DI and Glowplugs being 'ruled' out. For £20-£30 and a simple-ish DIY fix, it's worth trying. At the end of the day they are fitted for a reason, DPF or not, they heat the cylinder chamber. Which can only aid combustion, fuel atomised or not. If after all the car runs fine once warmed up, heat is a factor. I suppose the big question is, how long has the car been like this? Every winter since you got it or progressively over the years?

[andy1741]

50 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

 

I would definitely try leaving the AC off next cold morning and see if it's much better.  I know it has benefits with demisting but it does take a huge amount of power in the summer, I wouldn't want to try it from a cold start in winter lol! 

I agree with Alex about the cabin heat, I can drive an entire half hour trip through town with the heaters on in the winter and never see the temp gauge hit 90!   I was under the impression they had an electric aux heater but I'm not so sure now.

 

I'll try this the next cold morning as an experiment. Could well be a factor.

35 minutes ago, goldtail77 said:

I've never had any issues like described here. Evan after a full day at work, right on the coast near sea level. I don't have any problems (no downhill sections to help).

Interesting.. This is being pedantic but being near the coast would the actual temperature not be warmer than further inland? As in when it is raining where I live it tends to be warmer than cold dry frosty mornings. Regardless I did intend to change the glow plugs at my next service as I don't know the history of on them. I've found some available for €20 each by Japanparts: http://www.micksgarage.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=5105930&carid=18378. Is it simple to change these myself? The most complicated thing I've done myself mechanically is probably changing the fuel filter. Is this of the same standard or would I be better off buying them and going to a garage to get it done?

 

41 minutes ago, goldtail77 said:

I suppose the big question is, how long has the car been like this? Every winter since you got it or progressively over the years?

I suppose it was important to mention that this is the first winter I've owned this car. Bought it in April this year.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

I was under the impression they had an electric aux heater but I'm not so sure now.

Yes, I have been thinking about that ptc / aux heater, with the cold weather approaching.

My car starts ok in the cold, but drives terribly, weaving about and shuddering. However I have narrowed it down to one dodgy component, the driver. Performs badly when below optimum working temperature!

The big 80A fuse for it is there & intact, and the 10A control power fuse. I have not looked to see if the heater is fitted, I think access is from the driver's side, under the facsia. I bet it is not there.

But a 1kW heater (80A)  really would make the alternator grunt a bit. Though it is supposed to be power managed so as not to overload the system, I have heard.

 

[alexp999]

Even with an aux heater, afaik it still pulls air passed the engine to warm it up first and the aux heater just tops it up if the engine isn't warm enough to heat the air sufficiently.

So it will still pull heat out of the engine.

[mjt]

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

The glow plugs heat the cylinder rather than the block

As I said earlier I've no experience of this engine but in general I've always believed that the glow plugs simply provide a hot-spot to initiate combustion until the combustion chamber temperature gets high enough to sustain it. From reading a Wikipedia article this appears to apply to both DI and IDI engines. I'd have thought the tip of the glow plug is too small to heat the surrounding metal or air.

[goldtail77]

2 hours ago, andy1741 said:

I'll try this the next cold morning as an experiment. Could well be a factor.

Interesting.. This is being pedantic but being near the coast would the actual temperature not be warmer than further inland? As in when it is raining where I live it tends to be warmer than cold dry frosty mornings. Regardless I did intend to change the glow plugs at my next service as I don't know the history of on them. I've found some available for €20 each by Japanparts: http://www.micksgarage.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=5105930&carid=18378. Is it simple to change these myself? The most complicated thing I've done myself mechanically is probably changing the fuel filter. Is this of the same standard or would I be better off buying them and going to a garage to get it done?

 

I suppose it was important to mention that this is the first winter I've owned this car. Bought it in April this year.

You are quite right, coast air is normally warmer, if you are on the West. I'm on the East, so while it is warmer than inland it is still freezing some days. I've seen the ice in the car park accumulate to 1"+ thick and stay for days. The gritter avoids us.

I last changed Glow Plugs on my older 1.8TDCi. It was a simple as changing a spark plug, with the addition of a bolt to take the lead off first. Have a look on YouTube it will likely have a guide. At work so can't check myself for now.

MK2 Focus looks time consuming, so may not be as easy as I thought.

[mjt]

It's not quite as simple as changing a spark plug. There is a slight risk that the glow plug tip has seized in and may break off when attempting to remove the plug. Also the cable is attached with quite small nuts and washers that are easily dropped, needing the undertray to be removed to recover them. That said I changed all the plugs on our old 1.8TDCi without problems.

[mjt]

Sorry, the post came out doubled so deleted the text. I wish the forum would allow whole posts to be deleted.

[simcor]

A turbo charged car running well in the colder weather should really feel much more lively off the mark, cold dense air is excellent for turbo engines, mine is great when the air is cold and dense. Feels like a different car when it's cold.

Something does not sound right to me.

[SteveGSXR600K1]

Do you know when you last had the fuel filter changed? Every winter, I had power loss, more when at higher revs, which required the fuel filter to be changed. The Ford garage said that the fuel filter filters out the waxes in diesel and solidifies in the colder weather, and therefore restricts the fuel flow/pressure. They quoted me approx. £100 for the filter and labour, but a full Motorcraft service wasn't much more and included a new fuel filter. £100 sounds a lot, but the filter for the 1.6 TDCi is the most expensive one I've seen, and there is a knack to priming these once fitted, which is best left to the experts.