Rich237

1.6 TDCi P0299 code. Were to look before stripping turbo and pipes?

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I have a 59 plate 1.6 TDCI with 115k on the clock. I've had it since 9k miles and it's always been dealer serviced (for what it's worth), on time.

 

I am getting P0299 with Engine Malfunction, pretty reliably when I floor the accelerator. Normal pootling around is fine, but hard acceleration gives this fault.

I have fixed a burnt through pipe to the DPF sensor and fitted a new fuel filter a few months ago.

Today I took off the EGR valve and gave it a clean up as I had a Code: 'P1412 - EGR Valve Frozen' with MIL, but the P0299 code is still coming up.

I also gave the MAF a quick clean, as it was a little oily. Not dripping in oil, just not gleaming.

The air filter is well due for replacement, which I will do tomorrow.

I've read the horror stories of turbo bearing failure and all the carbon deposit and oil pipe cleaning/sump that is required as well as checking injector seals.

So before I go down that route, what else should I be looking for?

I'll give the turbo a spin and see how free it is and I'll have a good look around the intake plumbing.

Clearly the turbo hasn't failed, but it's either on the way out and not spinning up fast enough or there is an air leak somewhere.

Anything else i can easily check?

Any help gratefully accepted!

Cheers!

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If the air induction system tests ok,then you'll want to focus your diagnosis efforts on the charge pressure control,

diverter valve(blowoff valve) , sensors, regulators, ect...

check all turbo pipes ect for cracks n splits as this is prone to focus 

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hi mate , ive had the exact same problem  previously. out of sheer desperation and complete madness i spent a fortune on a new turbo and pipes and a good clean out of all the feeds etc. this didnt help so i asked a mechanic and he said , have you tried the boost pressure regulator? i went to my local ford dealer and they wouldnt sell me one on its own without the turbo and kit which was nearly £800, i went on ebay and got one from poland for £40.00 ish and it cured all the problems straight away. im not saying this is the cure but for your problem it may be a start instead of loads of expence you dont need . to help you a bit more its located at the back of the engine near to the sump / block division. try looking it up in the haynes manual and it will give you a picture. good luck !

 

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22 hours ago, cgriff40 said:

hi mate , ive had the exact same problem  previously. out of sheer desperation and complete madness i spent a fortune on a new turbo and pipes and a good clean out of all the feeds etc. this didnt help so i asked a mechanic and he said , have you tried the boost pressure regulator? i went to my local ford dealer and they wouldnt sell me one on its own without the turbo and kit which was nearly £800, i went on ebay and got one from poland for £40.00 ish and it cured all the problems straight away. im not saying this is the cure but for your problem it may be a start instead of loads of expence you dont need . to help you a bit more its located at the back of the engine near to the sump / block division. try looking it up in the haynes manual and it will give you a picture. good luck !

 

Hi Mate, Thanks for this info!

I had a look at the turbo actuator and it's moving up and down, even when just sitting there on idle and even for a while when the engine has just been turned off. Just wondered if that is a normal?

It moves slowly up then drops back quickly and repeats.

The turbo impeller seems to spin ok, but it doesn't really freewheel like I expected it would. There is very slight play in the shaft.

 

I'll look into the boost pressure regulator. I haven't heard about that before, so defo worth looking at. I am assuming you mean the solenoid that operates the turbo actuator? The actuator is moving while on idle, so it must be working???

Do you know if it can be read via the OBD? I can read dozens of sensors, MAP, MAF, fuel pressure, throttle, etc etc. I wondered if logging all these when the car goes into limp mode would help identify the issue. I guess I need to record MAP and atmospheric pressures while booting it.

 

Thanks again!

 

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Is that the older 16 valve twin cam engine or the newer 8 valve single cam engine? I am not sure exactly when the change over was. The reason I mention it is because I do not know if there were other changes to the engines which may or may not affect your problem or what to look for or where it might be situated

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28 minutes ago, isetta said:

Is that the older 16 valve twin cam engine or the newer 8 valve single cam engine? I am not sure exactly when the change over was. The reason I mention it is because I do not know if there were other changes to the engines which may or may not affect your problem or what to look for or where it might be situated

Not sure tbh. I'd need to check the vin online i guess?

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2 hours ago, isetta said:

Is that the older 16 valve twin cam engine or the newer 8 valve single cam engine? I am not sure exactly when the change over was. The reason I mention it is because I do not know if there were other changes to the engines which may or may not affect your problem or what to look for or where it might be situated

Its a 16V

Just been out for a drive with the OBD scanner on.

These graphs show that the MAP falls off as revs rises, in 4th gear.

MAP is high in lower gears as is fuel pressure.

the vertical red line is where the engine malfunction DTC comes on.

The RPM and fuel pressure are scaled to fit on the graph.

You can see the MAF showing low air flow too.

The green line is the turbo actuator servo.

focus scan4.jpg

focus scan5.jpg

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6 hours ago, Rich237 said:

These graphs show that the MAP falls off as revs rises, in 4th gear.

I can't see very well what is happening, those graph lines are a bit hard to identify on my screen.

But I can see the MAP (2nd from top?) dropping off as rpm (top line?) rises.

But why is hard to see. It could be blockage in the intake (throttle valve, air filter), leaks (split hose), or be the turbo actuator, or turbo. Turbo seems less likely as this evidently works mostly, and it is a very simple mechanical unit.

Actuator has a position feedback sensor & a control valve (I assume it is the vacuum actuator, not the electric actuator). So scope for odd failures there.

The MAP sensor does show a few odd wiggles for no apparent reason, maybe the MAP or its wiring is at fault.

Sorry, I can't help much more than that, but I will watch this thread for any more info or ideas!

 

 

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11 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I can't see very well what is happening, those graph lines are a bit hard to identify on my screen.

But I can see the MAP (2nd from top?) dropping off as rpm (top line?) rises.

But why is hard to see. It could be blockage in the intake (throttle valve, air filter), leaks (split hose), or be the turbo actuator, or turbo. Turbo seems less likely as this evidently works mostly, and it is a very simple mechanical unit.

Actuator has a position feedback sensor & a control valve (I assume it is the vacuum actuator, not the electric actuator). So scope for odd failures there.

The MAP sensor does show a few odd wiggles for no apparent reason, maybe the MAP or its wiring is at fault.

Sorry, I can't help much more than that, but I will watch this thread for any more info or ideas!

 

 

Thanks Peter,

I think the odd thing is that everything works as it should in lower gears. You can see max boost and it topping out at 250kpa (that's 16psi of boost). So that means the intake is free from leaks and the actuator is working etc.

Fuel pressure peaks up at 143000kpa (21,000psi) so I would assume fuel flow is ok. No DTC codes for fuel.

Lots of air flow through the MAF too.

It just seems not to bother adding any boost in the higher gear...

 

I've posted this on three other forums, no other comments yet. Maybe I need to find an ECU experts forum!?

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1 hour ago, Rich237 said:

I think the odd thing is that everything works as it should in lower gears

Yes, I noticed that too. The ECU does not know what gear is selected (on a manual), though I suppose it could calculate it from rpm & vehicle speed. My feeling is that it does not do that. So the difference may be timing. The acceleration ramp in 4th is after the other two, and also more gradual.

Other acceleration profiles, like repeated use of 3rd gear (going up a hill to be able to use similar throttle openings & rpm rise rate as in 4th) might yield a clue.

When the rpm is changing more slowly, the ECU has more time to test just what is happening, and to try to optimise it, or to flag up faults if it thinks it sees one.

The ECUs are bought in from Bosch, or Siemens or Delphi, usually along with the fuel injection kit. They have to work with all the transmissions for that engine type, so I suspect transmission related stuff like gear ratios is left out of the ECU as far as possible. And the ECU is pretty busy when the engine load & speed are changing fast. There is a lot happening. I think getting gear ratios from the ABS/ESP module and trying to use them would just be an added burden.

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Hi mate , ive looked on my obd reader and it doesnt come up with a code for the turbo pressure solenoid . i had the ecu remapped for a bit more boost and the fella that did it found out that it was mechanical not electrical.I googled the problem and it came up with this advice, and it was this unit. also on youtube it shows how it works and how it can fail over time, some say clean it out but my advice is to replace it and then hopefully the limp mode and p0299 code will  disappear for good. the unit does pressure up the actuator via two pipes leading to the back of the engine from the actuator and theres a electrical plug on it too , but you have to lift the car up or go over a pit to get to it. good luck mate hope all goes well .

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3 hours ago, cgriff40 said:

Hi mate , ive looked on my obd reader and it doesnt come up with a code for the turbo pressure solenoid . i had the ecu remapped for a bit more boost and the fella that did it found out that it was mechanical not electrical.I googled the problem and it came up with this advice, and it was this unit. also on youtube it shows how it works and how it can fail over time, some say clean it out but my advice is to replace it and then hopefully the limp mode and p0299 code will  disappear for good. the unit does pressure up the actuator via two pipes leading to the back of the engine from the actuator and theres a electrical plug on it too , but you have to lift the car up or go over a pit to get to it. good luck mate hope all goes well .

OK thanks mate. I saw some pics of that valve on the net, so I know what to look for. Defo worth a try for £40... I'll post back if I get anywhere...

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mine came from ploand and has worked wonders for the performance it was like driving a new car!

 

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I had this problem and i changed the turbo pressure valve on the back of the engine and the problem still occured what else could i look for?

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1 hour ago, Finneagle64 said:

I had this problem and i changed the turbo pressure valve on the back of the engine and the problem still occured what else could i look for?

The P0299 code usually comes up because the boost pressure reading from the MAP sensor is lower than expected. So it can be the solenoid valve, the turbo actuator, or the MAP sensor. As you have changed the solenoid valve, check the actuator can move freely, and all the pipes are ok from vacuum pump to solenoid and to actuator.

On my car, it was the pipe connecting the MAP sensor to the manifold that was the fault causing P0299 errors. Yes, the 1.8 is a very different beast, the turbo actuator is electronic, and the MAP sensor has a connecting pipe. The 1.6 has a vacuum actuator and the MAP sensor fits into the inlet piping directly. But the principle is the same, MAP or turbo system are equally likely.

If the turbo actuator is sticking badly, then the effect on performance will be dramatic. If the MAP sensor is the problem, there will be some loss of top end power, but not so clear cut as with a non-functioning turbo.

 

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1 hour ago, Tdci-Peter said:

The P0299 code usually comes up because the boost pressure reading from the MAP sensor is lower than expected. So it can be the solenoid valve, the turbo actuator, or the MAP sensor. As you have changed the solenoid valve, check the actuator can move freely, and all the pipes are ok from vacuum pump to solenoid and to actuator.

On my car, it was the pipe connecting the MAP sensor to the manifold that was the fault causing P0299 errors. Yes, the 1.8 is a very different beast, the turbo actuator is electronic, and the MAP sensor has a connecting pipe. The 1.6 has a vacuum actuator and the MAP sensor fits into the inlet piping directly. But the principle is the same, MAP or turbo system are equally likely.

If the turbo actuator is sticking badly, then the effect on performance will be dramatic. If the MAP sensor is the problem, there will be some loss of top end power, but not so clear cut as with a non-functioning turbo.

 

Yes okay i will check the MAP sensor as my car seems to run perfect in lower gears and at lower speed but when i get to 4th or 5th around 70/80mph it just stops boosting and goes into limp mode. Meaning i have to turn the car on and off to reset it. I went out for a test run with the guy who remapped my car and he had his computer plugged in and it came back as underboosting and the only thing he could suggest was a boost leak somewhere.

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10 hours ago, Finneagle64 said:

only thing he could suggest was a boost leak somewhere

A leak in one of the intake air hoses between turbo and inlet manifold would need to be quite big to have that much effect, and usually you can hear this in the car as a hissing noise when the throttle is full open. It is still worth having a quick feel around all the air hoses you can get to. Splits are invariably at the back, where you can not see them! Oil will usually spray out of these splits, which is one clue to look out for. The oil comes from the crankcase breather system. Even a tiny amount makes quite a mess.

I also had a split air intake hose, but it had nothing to do with the P0299 error.

 

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On 3/9/2019 at 11:55 AM, Tdci-Peter said:

A leak in one of the intake air hoses between turbo and inlet manifold would need to be quite big to have that much effect, and usually you can hear this in the car as a hissing noise when the throttle is full open. It is still worth having a quick feel around all the air hoses you can get to. Splits are invariably at the back, where you can not see them! Oil will usually spray out of these splits, which is one clue to look out for. The oil comes from the crankcase breather system. Even a tiny amount makes quite a mess.

I also had a split air intake hose, but it had nothing to do with the P0299 error.

 

One of the clips on the breather pipe between the crankcase and the air intake so there is a bit of oil leaking out, could this cause a boosy leak in the system? 

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23 hours ago, Finneagle64 said:

One of the clips on the breather pipe between the crankcase and the air intake so there is a bit of oil leaking out, could this cause a boost leak in the system?

The breather pipe from crankcase to air intake is not part of the pressurised pipework, so can not affect boost pressure.

Bad leaks here can let dirt & dust into the crankcase, or into the intake system, but should otherwise have little effect.

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On 3/11/2019 at 12:46 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

The breather pipe from crankcase to air intake is not part of the pressurised pipework, so can not affect boost pressure.

Bad leaks here can let dirt & dust into the crankcase, or into the intake system, but should otherwise have little effect.

Not found any splits in any pipes anywhere and taken the maf out and cleaned it and still got the problem🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

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On 3/11/2019 at 12:46 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

The breather pipe from crankcase to air intake is not part of the pressurised pipework, so can not affect boost pressure.

Bad leaks here can let dirt & dust into the crankcase, or into the intake system, but should otherwise have little effect.

Could the turbo actuator be causing this problem? Might replace the actuator and see if this fixes the problem

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14 hours ago, Finneagle64 said:

Could the turbo actuator be causing this problem?

It is possible, but only one of several suspects. If you can get a cheap 2nd hand one, then it is worth a try. Even just removing it and testing it would help. A vacuum actuator is relatively simple, compared to an electronic one. It should move without jamming, and suction on the connecting pipe should make it move, with no signs of leakage. I assume it is spring return, so should return smoothly to its rest position.

With the actuator removed, you can also test the vane adjustment mechanism on the turbo for free movement with no sign of jamming.

There is also a position sensor between the actuator and the turbo. Probably just a pot. It has a three wire connection and is quite easy to test with a multimeter.

If all this proves ok, then the next suspect would be the MAP sensor. After that the vacuum system and pipes. I assume you checked some of the pipes when changing the solenoid valve.

If the turbo spins & works to some extent, and is not leaking huge amounts of oil, then that is really the last suspect after all others have been ruled out.

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26 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

It is possible, but only one of several suspects. If you can get a cheap 2nd hand one, then it is worth a try. Even just removing it and testing it would help. A vacuum actuator is relatively simple, compared to an electronic one. It should move without jamming, and suction on the connecting pipe should make it move, with no signs of leakage. I assume it is spring return, so should return smoothly to its rest position.

With the actuator removed, you can also test the vane adjustment mechanism on the turbo for free movement with no sign of jamming.

There is also a position sensor between the actuator and the turbo. Probably just a pot. It has a three wire connection and is quite easy to test with a multimeter.

If all this proves ok, then the next suspect would be the MAP sensor. After that the vacuum system and pipes. I assume you checked some of the pipes when changing the solenoid valve.

If the turbo spins & works to some extent, and is not leaking huge amounts of oil, then that is really the last suspect after all others have been ruled out.

You can get new actuators for around £40 so will buy one of them. The one on the car now moves but it seems to slowly return? Like if you push it in it is slow to return back to the closed position. I don’t think there is a position sensor because its a vacuum actuator but i might be wrong. I checked most of the lines that i could they all seemed to be fine.

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3 hours ago, Finneagle64 said:

The one on the car now moves but it seems to slowly return? Like if you push it in it is slow to return back to the closed position. I don’t think there is a position sensor because its a vacuum actuator but i might be wrong.

My memory is playing up a bit! A turbo position sensor is shown on the circuit diagrams for the 2.0TDCI, but not for the 1.6TDCI. So it looks like you are right in thinking there isn't one. Though the 2.0 also has a vacuum actuator, just a bit more sophisticated!

I would expect some degree of damping in the movement, possibly by a deliberate restriction in the air flow back in to the actuator. The control solenoid (turbo pressure valve) is on or off, and to control the actuator to midway it needs to cycle on-off quite rapidly, and some restriction in the air flow will convert this to a steady(ish) pressure in the actuator. Comparing it to a new one would establish just how much, if any, damping there should be. In the absence of a position sensor, the control may just be bang-bang (full on or full off) on the 1.6TDCI.

 

 

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19 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

My memory is playing up a bit! A turbo position sensor is shown on the circuit diagrams for the 2.0TDCI, but not for the 1.6TDCI. So it looks like you are right in thinking there isn't one. Though the 2.0 also has a vacuum actuator, just a bit more sophisticated!

I would expect some degree of damping in the movement, possibly by a deliberate restriction in the air flow back in to the actuator. The control solenoid (turbo pressure valve) is on or off, and to control the actuator to midway it needs to cycle on-off quite rapidly, and some restriction in the air flow will convert this to a steady(ish) pressure in the actuator. Comparing it to a new one would establish just how much, if any, damping there should be. In the absence of a position sensor, the control may just be bang-bang (full on or full off) on the 1.6TDCI.

 

 

Would the actuator not working quite right cause my boost pressure to be low at high rpm and speed though? Because my car is completely fine until i get to around 70-90mph (it sometimes differs) and then it will just go into limp mode and i have to stop completely and turn the car off for it to reset

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