Erratic idiling when umder electrical load

[Neilc]

thats an interesting one neil. shame its costing a fortune for the diagnostics though.

i have now changed the throttle position sensor and have changed the idle reading from 19.2 to 20% so that has helped a little but still not great. it did appear to work when i first tried it but it seems more of a hit or miss.

ive been recording data and playing it back and it appears one of my lambda sensors could be out? at most times they follow each other but there are times when one sensor goes to (for example) 0.651v while the other one stays very low at 0.115v. but i am seeing anything between 0.1 and 0.7v between the two. im sure a lambda sensor is meant to read between 0.2 and 0.8v?

hopefully we will be getting some good results soon and solve the problem!

Hi Just done 50 miles of driving under various conditions since the Ford dealership cleared all the faults been and had the car diag done again, guess what no faults recorded, but I think the the car is better maybe due to the larger battery in these wet/cold conditions.

Thanks for all the help advice from all readers!!

I will keep looking on here in case anybody else has any more ideas.

Neil

[InstructorPiggy]

the two lambda sensors...

one is likely to be precat and the other after cat....

if the second one is reading...then the cat aint working very well!!

But will depend on heat of cat/exhaust system though :)

[stef123]

the two lambda sensors...

one is likely to be precat and the other after cat....

if the second one is reading...then the cat aint working very well!!

But will depend on heat of cat/exhaust system though :)

from the reader, its bnk2 sensor 2 that im reffering to isnt that great.

even when out for a run its reading can be very low. 0.1/0.2v

[InstructorPiggy]

from the reader, its bnk2 sensor 2 that im reffering to isnt that great.

even when out for a run its reading can be very low. 0.1/0.2v

check where the sensors are....may find that easier to refer to....

may just say 'bank2' as reference...coz you aint got two banks....IE a V6 or V8...unless you aint told us!

that sounds right...when out for a run the cat will be warmer and working....therefore meaning the second sensor won't read the fuel changes as the cat is ridding the fumes of what the lamdbas read :)

:)

[stef123]

check where the sensors are....may find that easier to refer to....

may just say 'bank2' as reference...coz you aint got two banks....IE a V6 or V8...unless you aint told us!

that sounds right...when out for a run the cat will be warmer and working....therefore meaning the second sensor won't read the fuel changes as the cat is ridding the fumes of what the lamdbas read :)

:)

nope, last time i checked it was an inline 4 im afraid :( hmm so if the voltage of the second sensor is low thats normal then?

[artscot79]

the ford batteries for the focus ie proper ones are hybrids they are silver calcium batteries easy way to check the battery will say silver calcium they dont have to be expensive ive been using this one on my cars and its great 3yr warranty as well http://www.iblbatteries.co.uk/silver-technology.html

stef123 will know farmers autocare 40 quid fitted

[stef123]

the ford batteries for the focus ie proper ones are hybrids they are silver calcium batteries easy way to check the battery will say silver calcium they dont have to be expensive ive been using this one on my cars and its great 3yr warranty as well http://www.iblbatteries.co.uk/silver-technology.html

stef123 will know farmers autocare 40 quid fitted

according to my handbook and trevor at fordpartsuk its just a 'lead calcium' the same as the one i took out funnily enough which was genuine motorcraft. it was also recommended by a battery supplier.

its not farmers you work at is it? My brother went there once and so did 2 other people i know and all swear never to go back there. so my oponion is i will never go there.

I stick with AD tyres and fife auto...get on well with them both and they have never let me down

the battery was a problem on my car a couple of months ago, but im reluctant to change it again after spending £60 on a new one.

still want to know why i get a 'lift off' misfire though...

[artscot79]

according to my handbook and trevor at fordpartsuk its just a 'lead calcium' the same as the one i took out funnily enough which was genuine motorcraft. it was also recommended by a battery supplier.

its not farmers you work at is it? My brother went there once and so did 2 other people i know and all swear never to go back there. so my oponion is i will never go there.

I stick with AD tyres and fife auto...get on well with them both and they have never let me down

the battery was a problem on my car a couple of months ago, but im reluctant to change it again after spending £60 on a new one.

still want to know why i get a 'lift off' misfire though...

http://www.battery.co.za/auto/Q&ACalciumRange.htm

explains all they are described as lead calcium but they are hybrid of lead/calcium/silver

no i dont work for farmers they are all new staff there and they have always been honest and done a great job the new guys that work there they dont bullshit if you dont need it they dont try to fob you off with buying it anyway

the battery stuff can be confusing they are lead calcium but have silver on the positive electrode Halfords fob people off with any old crap the truth is only silver lead calcium work on smart charge which a lot of cars now have

[stef123]

http://www.battery.co.za/auto/Q&ACalciumRange.htm

explains all they are described as lead calcium but they are hybrid of lead/calcium/silver

no i dont work for farmers they are all new staff there and they have always been honest and done a great job the new guys that work there they dont bullshit if you dont need it they dont try to fob you off with buying it anyway

the battery stuff can be confusing they are lead calcium but have silver on the positive electrode halfords fob people off with any old crap the truth is only silver lead calcium work on smart charge which a lot of cars now have

will read the link in a sec.

well my brothers experience at farmers was far from a pleasant one, ended up telling them to ram it and went elsewhere to get their mess fixed.

he had booked for mot and 1 front tyre, done the mot needed a new track rod end. so fitted that, do you want tracking done? (think it was a tenner?) ok yes do that. went to pick up the car and the steerin wheel was far from straight so he told them about it, they had fixed it apparently but it still wasnt any better. in the end AD tyres sorted it out in 10 minutes for a small fee.

hardly rocket science to get the steering wheel straight when doing the allignment.

right, im not really seeing what difference a calcium one is compared with a silver calcium. apart from its more resistant to temperature etc. the battery im using is the equivalent of the OE one so i cant see why that would cause me any probs? am i picking up the wrong end of the stick here, is my battery a lead calcium with silver? or are they 2 totally different things?

[stef123]

just found this, http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17960952

which is basically the problem i and many others seem to be having. does anyone know about and ecu update for the so called 'Idle undershot ?

also found this

Summary

Should a customer express concern over the vehicle failing to start, or the charging control lamp being illuminated constantly or intermittently, or headlamps and/or instrument panel flickering/dimming (EXCEPT when excessive electrical loading is applied), the probable cause is a faulty alternator. This could be due to either ingress of salt water into the regulator, or torque relaxation of the regulator earth bolt causing ground interference.

Dealers are experiencing some difficulties diagnosing these alternator issues. To rectify this concern, this bulletin contains supplemental test steps to guide a technician in diagnosing a failed/faulty alternator.

These additional steps will be included in the relevant service Publications at the next update.

Parts RequiredDescriptionFinis CodeQuantityAlternator Assembly (Zetec)1 070 8041Alternator Assembly (Zetec‐SE)1 090 0851Alternator Assembly (Diesel)1 079 3121Cable Tie6 061 9151Wiring LoomParts Microfiche1Labor TimeOperation DescriptionOperation No.TimeAlternator Assembly - Remove and Install-31 414 0Additional Test Procedure, All except Diesel-31 414 0Additional Test Procedure and Wiring Loom adjustment, Diesel only-31 414 0Charging System FDS 2000 Preliminary Checks-31 414 0Charging System FDS 2000 Main Electrical Check-31 414 0Repair/Claim CodingCausal Part:ACES Condition Codeefect Code:09OASIS203100, 204000, 206000, 603300Service Instruction

See Summary

[artscot79]

to clarify all lead/calcium batteries contain silver and are therefore referred to as silver calcium the only other battery is lead/acid which in a ford or any car with s.c.s is a bad idea so if it says lead calcium its silver lead acid its the wrong type of battery.

[artscot79]

just found this, http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17960952

which is basically the problem i and many others seem to be having. does anyone know about and ecu update for the so called 'Idle undershot ?

also found this

Summary

Should a customer express concern over the vehicle failing to start, or the charging control lamp being illuminated constantly or intermittently, or headlamps and/or instrument panel flickering/dimming (EXCEPT when excessive electrical loading is applied), the probable cause is a faulty alternator. This could be due to either ingress of salt water into the regulator, or torque relaxation of the regulator earth bolt causing ground interference.

Dealers are experiencing some difficulties diagnosing these alternator issues. To rectify this concern, this bulletin contains supplemental test steps to guide a technician in diagnosing a failed/faulty alternator.

These additional steps will be included in the relevant Service Publications at the next update.

Parts RequiredDescriptionFinis CodeQuantityAlternator Assembly (Zetec)1 070 8041Alternator Assembly (Zetec‐SE)1 090 0851Alternator Assembly (Diesel)1 079 3121Cable Tie6 061 9151Wiring LoomParts Microfiche1Labor TimeOperation DescriptionOperation No.TimeAlternator Assembly - Remove and Install-31 414 0Additional Test Procedure, All except Diesel-31 414 0Additional Test Procedure and Wiring Loom adjustment, Diesel only-31 414 0Charging System FDS 2000 Preliminary Checks-31 414 0Charging System FDS 2000 Main Electrical Check-31 414 0Repair/Claim CodingCausal Part:ACES Condition Codeefect Code:09OASIS203100, 204000, 206000, 603300Service Instruction

See Summary

it could be worth a try though the correct idle speed for the mk1 focus is not 800rpm in fact it can be between 690/750rpm so not sure where his info comes from as all mk1 and 1.5 that im aware of idle at around 750ish

[stef123]

it could be worth a try though the correct idle speed for the mk1 focus is not 800rpm in fact it can be between 690/750rpm so not sure where his info comes from as all mk1 and 1.5 that im aware of idle at around 750ish

thanks for clarifying the battery info though, i was starting to get confused.

me neither but as far as im aware it should be 700 +/- 30rpm. when mine dips below 700rpm you can feel a vibration until the revs pick up again. this happens everytime pretty much i return to idle. or when im coming to a stop at a junction and put the clutch it it can drop quite low, maybe 600rpm.

[Matt_focus_zetec]

Hiya again

the link u put up about the tech note on it mine has already had all tech notes known to the ford wds system cos i have a mate thAT works there but he thinks its my manifold pressure my fault but we dont agree on it lol but i see where ur coming from i think im going to get a new battery first off to be honest stef i have pm'd u about earths and the rest have a quick read if u would

cheers

Mat

[stef123]

well a little update i supose,

ive noticed over the last 2 days that if its cold outside, once my engine has warmed up and been out for a run it idles perfect. does drop momentarily when i switch some electrical load on at idle but picks up ok. but if i rev and put load on it returns to idle perfectly. we havent really had a warmish day in a while but when its not absolutely baltic the revs aint too great.

I had the scanner plugged in the other night and noticed that:

when the engine is cold the second lambda sensor is totally dead, 0.000v which is the normal right?

when driving and the engine is under load i get about 0.8v on the second sensor, if i take the load off the engine ie going down a hill at 40mph in 5th gear i get a very low reading and sometimes close to 0v and immediately changes when load is put back on.

when idling after a good run im getting about 0.8v again on the sensor.

is this normal?

the first sensor seems to do a constant 0.2/0.8v kinda pattern, always quite a difference with figures.

[Matt_focus_zetec]

well a little update i supose,

ive noticed over the last 2 days that if its cold outside, once my engine has warmed up and been out for a run it idles perfect. does drop momentarily when i switch some electrical load on at idle but picks up ok. but if i rev and put load on it returns to idle perfectly. we havent really had a warmish day in a while but when its not absolutely baltic the revs aint too great.

I had the scanner plugged in the other night and noticed that:

when the engine is cold the second lambda sensor is totally dead, 0.000v which is the normal right?

when driving and the engine is under load i get about 0.8v on the second sensor, if i take the load off the engine ie going down a hill at 40mph in 5th gear i get a very low reading and sometimes close to 0v and immediately changes when load is put back on.

when idling after a good run im getting about 0.8v again on the sensor.

is this normal?

the first sensor seems to do a constant 0.2/0.8v kinda pattern, always quite a difference with figures.

sent u a pm but mine does that in the cold its fine well it has been these last two days but if it goes warm it just gets screwed

[stef123]

sent u a pm but mine does that in the cold its fine well it has been these last two days but if it goes warm it just gets screwed

hi matt, did you get my email?

well the car is still no better, 3 times it has cut out while trying to stop on snow/ice!

heres a couple of bits ive found from various forums about erratic idle and trying to stall.

Check the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) which is bolted to the throttle housing, it will have 3 wires going to it.

Switch ignition on and with a multi meter on DC volts check the centre wire it should show a reading between 0.67-0.7volts if any different then the TPS needs adjustment.

To adjust the TPS you will need to remove the fixing screws and twist the TPS until you get a reading on 0.7 volt, once this correct then you may have to alter the holes on the TPS to suit.

While checking out the TPS I had to lean in over the top of the engine to get at the plug connection. I checked the TPS and found nothing wrong, but did notice a small rubber hose at the rear of the throttle body which cant be seen unless you climb in (or know its there).Reconnected the TPS & started her up Problem still present but now I could just hear a slight sucking noise like drawing in air. Checked around throttle body,top hoses for leaks all ok, however reaching behind the throttle body and checking this hose the engine note immediately changed. Removed hose and found a small split in it on the underside. Went to Ford with the hose. They have superceded this hose due to it being a known common problem.The hose I got was part number 10762884 ,tube/crank vent @ £7.88. Fitted this and have now done 50miles with no problems. Revs dropping when removing power,when stopped not reving at 3500 & ticks over fine

A failing VSS (Vehicle speed sensor) causes idle problems on the Focus, and is an very common fault. Have you ever seen the speedometer flick down to zero briefly whilst driving?

servo vacuum pipe split, classic fault one these cars.

If it was running rich, there would likely be a stored code, so it's possibly running lean.

Check for air leaks at the inlet or perhaps perished rubber hoses.

[stef123]

right one more thing for those still interested, just been searching for possible fixes for the flickering lights/dash and stumbling revs.

come across this, can anyone say if this is still a go'er? might need to give ford a ring.

http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=278901

oh and this

http://www.carclinicmagazine.com/ford_focu...t_cluster_.html

seems to sum up my problems really although i dont have any probs with the gauges

[artscot79]

right one more thing for those still interested, just been searching for possible fixes for the flickering lights/dash and stumbling revs.

come across this, can anyone say if this is still a go'er? might need to give ford a ring.

http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=278901

oh and this

http://www.carclinicmagazine.com/ford_focu...t_cluster_.html

seems to sum up my problems really although i dont have any probs with the gauges

hit or miss really if the gauges are fine then i doubt thats thje issue ford will replace them for 99 quid but if it doesnt solve it then its 99 quid wasted ive had a shot of 2 focuses a mk1.5 and a mk1 and i can confirm the slight dip in revs when allowing them to drop is normal on all of them also when the loads put on they all act exactly the same so i think that as long as the car is running and not stalling there isnt a problem mine was in at ford for service and i spoke to the mechanic he done all the checks and said the car was perfect no problems at all i said aboiut the rev drop and he said its an effect of the smart charge changing the output to the battery and normal on mondeos etc he said the reason its more noticeable is that most cars idle higher so you dont notice this happening usually 800-900rpm but the ford for emission purposes was set to rev lower.

in his words if the revs drop say 100rpm when you stop or put excessive load on and you idle at 700 etc then you will drop to 580 and the effect is felt( the shudder) as the idle control kicks back in. the stall point is set under 550rpm so as long as it doesnt stall its a normal effect. on other cars they usually idle at a minimum of 850rpm they drop 100 rpm they are still at 750rpm so the effects arent felt as much so most cars drop there revs to the lowest point ie 700-750rpm then up to 850rpm the focus idles at 750rpm or less standard

he also stated that a slight flicker in the lights when idling and electrics under load is normal and with a tap of the accelerator you should see these brighten and just shows the alternator is working right if they dont brighten then theres a fauklt some where the reason is when the car is idling and the electrolyte temp is up the smart charge is basically running at its minimum and so most of the current drawn for the electrics comes from the battery but when you accelerate the smart charge kicks in and the voltage increases youre now putting extra volts into the battery which then stops lights from flickering as the alternator cant run on high all the time incresing the rpm on most cars makes this less noticeable just like slightly tapping the accelerator will stop the flicker which is why on some cars its noticeable and on other makes its not in his words if the gauges function correctly the car doesnt stall at idle or slowing down the alternator responds to the correct output and doesnt drop below 12 with all the electrics running and the car at idle then there isnt a problem and as he put it the guys are wasting there money it was he who showed me with the other cars that its how they are hes heard of people adding extra batteries heavy duty wiring etc but its all controlled from the ecm so this is pointless.

he also said that if the dash hasnt been cutting out or lights illuminating for a second then going out again for no reason then its not the cluster

[Matt_focus_zetec]

Hmmmm this gets more intresting by the minute dont it one says one anthor says anthor stef i thought it was my map sensor but its probs not bu in the beggining i thought about going to have my car chipped to run slightly higher on idle and a little faster through the gears but didnt want to !Removed! up the ecu if this bloke is right then the ecm is wrong and get a reprog / upgrade to change the way it runs i love my focus best car i have ever had but cant stand this stupid smart charge system my car is starting to sound like all the renaults i see on a daily basis but this dont happen in renaults as he pointed out above they run higher idle so u dont notice it and i tell u what its absoulty fab u stick the air con on in a renault AT idle its bliss it is not a PROBLEM u do it in a ford focus zetec its a friggin nightmare argggghhhhhh lol its driving me nuts i think new battery and start to look for a ecm / ecu upgrade any one know any company thats good to do this or will a blue fin do the trick

Cheers

Matt

[stef123]

thats worth a thought, getting the ecu remapped to run slightly higher at idle?? i onder if that would have any affect on emmissions for the mot though?

i think contacting someone who can remap would be an awesome idea, even if the idle was increased from 730~ to 800rpm?

my only problem is, did the focus really leave the factory with revs that dip quite low when returning to idle just because it has a smart charge system? im sure if the designers knew this then the chances are it wouldnt.... so IMO i dont think the revs should dip.

cheers

stef

matt - one thing i am going to do at the weekend is elongate the holes in the throttle position sensor in an attempt to trick the ecu. should keep the revs a bit higher :)

[artscot79]

thats worth a thought, getting the ecu remapped to run slightly higher at idle?? i onder if that would have any affect on emmissions for the mot though?

i think contacting someone who can remap would be an awesome idea, even if the idle was increased from 730~ to 800rpm?

my only problem is, did the focus really leave the factory with revs that dip quite low when returning to idle just because it has a smart charge system? im sure if the designers knew this then the chances are it wouldnt.... so IMO i dont think the revs should dip.

cheers

stef

matt - one thing i am going to do at the weekend is elongate the holes in the throttle position sensor in an attempt to trick the ecu. should keep the revs a bit higher :)

the revs only dip that low with a load on the system like lights and rear screen etc and the dip is only for a fraction of a second they never were the smoothest idling cars and no increasing the revs slightly shouldnt effect the emissions as weve seen even when the cars have been to ford and run through every diagnostic possible they are fine just the way they were designed my old mans nissan idles at 900rpm when its warm my old passat was 850 old fiat 850 and my hyundai was 850 ford focus was set to run 750 or less maybe ford can plug it in and increase the idle speed ive heard of people getting this done when the rpm undershoots the 55o mark causing it to stall many are getting it increased to 800-850rpm to cure the problem

[stef123]

i will try adjusting the TPS by elongating the holes, see if i can set a different idle throttle position. currently its at 20% but im aiming for closer to 25% i think.

[Matt_focus_zetec]

hello all

this is the email i got from angel tuning today now i am going to phone them tmra to see if i go to them will it be cheaper and as for the optional air filter what do y'all think worth having or not as im not paying £45 for a panel filter k&n do one for much cheaper heres the email below anyways so when u read it u can see they offer a full refund if u dont like what they done dont sound to bad to me to be fair

Dear Matt,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the upgrades Angel Tuning offer for your Ford Focus.

AT A GLANCE QUOTE

Charge including VAT & Coming To You:-

£250.00

BHP Increase:-

10

Lb Ft Increase:-

11

ITG Competition Air Filter (Optional):-

£45.00

Economy Improvement:-

8-10% Overall / 14-16% Urban

FULL QUOTE

Engine Tuning

We offer engine remapping, the modern version of chipping which is the correct way to safely tune a modern petrol engine. With our ECU remapping you get smooth and progressive power, with improved response, that can be tailored to your requirements. Angel Tuning are able to offer tuning services at your location with our mobile tech team, who are fully equipped with the latest diagnostic equipment as well as a wide range of tuning hardware. Whilst we normally book 1-2 weeks in advance for mobile it depends when you book in as we can often get customers in earlier.

Our charge for the 1.6 16v is £250.00 including VAT. This price includes the engine tuning work to add up to 10bhp, (11lb ft torque) pre and post testing, acceleration testing and travel to your home or workplace.

Whilst we are unable to give an accurate figure on the improvement in economy after your car has been tuned, most people get between 1-3mpg improvement on petrol vehicles providing your driving style and the speed you drive at does not change! As the engine is running more efficiently, the emissions are actually improved so there will be no problem at MOT time should you have the car at that point.

We would like to state that we are not the sort of company that tries to get the ultimate extra 1bhp at the expense of drivability just to look good on paper nor do we quote the power figures from a single dyno run set up to achieve a short term burst of power to win your business. We know from vast experience what these cars can take long term and our aim is to achieve the best combination of power, longevity, economy and as mentioned, drivability.

ECU remapping is fully reversible, which means if you are unhappy with the results on the day, we will return the car to normal and thank you for trying us. After this, we offer a 14 day "cooling off" period** during which you can at least get the chance to test our work over distance and familiar journeys. If once again you are unhappy for any reason, we can either modify what we have done or indeed return the car to standard and give you a full refund. When you come to sell the vehicle we can return the car to standard for you free of charge****.

Other Upgrades from Angel Tuning

Angel Tuning can also supply an ITG sports air filter, which uses a patented tri foam filtration element as used in their competition induction systems. This will increase the power by a further 1 – 1.5% due to the improved air flow rate and further improve the throttle response. The additional price on this is £45.00.

Company Information

Our technicians are full insured not only to carry out the work on your vehicle but to fully test drive a modified car too, which is something we implore you to check if you decide to go elsewhere for a “cheap deal”.

Angel Tuning are a UK wide company with locations strategically placed to ensure coverage. We are big enough to cope with the largest of demands but still retain the small company approach to care and flexibility. By becoming an Angel Tuning client, you benefit from the experience of a company tuning in excess of 200 vehicles per month and a commitment to customer support and satisfaction. We are an independent tuning company, we are not dictated to by being a franchise of another tuning company and can therefore be flexible to every individual’s needs, be it from a dealership to a private individual.

Payment

We accept all major credit/debit cards except American Express, cash or cheque.

I will leave you to consider the details, should you require further information, please do not hesitate to either drop us another email or call us for a friendly chat on 087 091 091 16.

Best regards

Simon

Angel Tuning

*The work is free, however we will charge an agreed expense if you want the technician to come to you.

** This can be extended by agreement in certain circumstances

*** This is refunded as part of the full refund should you not be satisfied with the work in any way

**** We will request and agree a reasonable fee to cover travel for the technician to come out to you

cheers matt

[stef123]

hello matt,

sorry i thought i had already replied to your post!

Sounds good for £250. Im gonna modify the TPS sensor tomorow and see what affect it has, will let you know.