power loss 1.6 tdci

[jcr]

hello everyone.

just registered hoping for some help. have found the forum quite helpful in the past when after guidance.

car is a 1.6 tdci estate on a 58 plate.

my woes started when i was driving and the engine became really noisy. i thought the exhaust had fallen off. had it checked at an exhaust center and everything was ok. went to a garage and they said it was the egr valve. had valve replaced but the power was well down when i got the car back. the turbo just doesnt boost like it should. took car back to garage but they cant find anything wrong.

any ideas?

thank you

[jcr]

Anyone?

 

[DJ_Andy_M]

Sounds like the car is still in limp mode. Get a code reader on it.

You have the 1.6TDCi 16v and there are various issues you need to look at 

[jcr]

Cars not in limp mode. Has a bit more power than that. Recently changed a faulty maf sensor which had put the car in limp mode and noticed an improvement after. 

Cleared the fault code with one of those cheap bluetooth readers from eBay but can't clear the dot matrix warning (engine malfunction) which is annoying. 

Currently no fault codes showing. 

Thanks 

 

[DJ_Andy_M]

If you're getting engine malfunction there are still codes in the system. Have you tried Forscan?

[xyster]

I don't think they can just change the EGR valve. It has to be coded and recalibrated for the end points (fully open/closed) can only be done by ford iirc. 

[Damien]

You will still have codes in there which need cleared off n car ran n see what shows up car could be fine but still running on fault codes

[jcr]

On 8/22/2017 at 11:19 AM, DJ_Andy_M said:

If you're getting engine malfunction there are still codes in the system. Have you tried Forscan?

i used a program called torque from my phone. how can i get forscan?

[jcr]

On 8/26/2017 at 0:41 AM, xyster said:

I don't think they can just change the EGR valve. It has to be coded and recalibrated for the end points (fully open/closed) can only be done by ford iirc. 

this is worrying. wouldn't the garage be aware of this and advise me?

[DJ_Andy_M]

On 8/27/2017 at 8:37 AM, jcr said:

i used a program called torque from my phone. how can i get forscan?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Forscan

[xyster]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 8:39 AM, jcr said:

this is worrying. wouldn't the garage be aware of this and advise me?

Yes and no, it depends on their knowledge I suppose, and a lot of EGR valves can be changed without having to code/calibrate them - I would ring ford and ask them to clarify.

[iantt]

the learn points would need resetting. most garages have the equipment to this nowadays

[jcr]

i picked up a scanner from tunnelrat electronics and ran forscan from laptop.

came up with codes-

p0299-21

p2585-21

p1932-60

reset the codes and p0299-21 disappeared but the other 2 remain.

the dpf was disabled and the car remapped a couple of years ago so am guessing the 2 remaining codes can be ignored?

[Tdci-Peter]

2 hours ago, jcr said:

reset the codes and p0299-21 disappeared but the other 2 remain.

I guess the two Additive codes have been present since the DPF was disabled, and can be ignored. I wonder what they did with the additive system? It might be possible to reset the FACM (can be done via Forscan), and make it think the additivice has been re-filled to get rid of those codes.

Has the warning message gone now P0299 has cleared?

If not, then it is likely the additive system was not fully disabled, and the car now thinks the tank is empty. That would show a warning message, as it is a serious problem if a DPF is present.

P0299 is related to turbo performance. If it comes back, there may be a problem with the turbo system. If it has the vacuum operated turbo actuator, faults with the solenoid that controls it, or with the hoses, are quite common. The solenoid is quite cheap, but a bit awkward to get to.

I have never heard of an EGR causing a noise like a blowing exhaust, but then there are lots of things I have never heard of! It does seem a bit odd though.

[jcr]

The engine malfunction warning is still showing in the dot matrix. Resetting the codes didn't make any difference to it.

[Tdci-Peter]

4 hours ago, jcr said:

The engine malfunction warning is still showing in the dot matrix. Resetting the codes didn't make any difference to it.

That suggests that the job of removing the DPF was not done too well, and it now thinks the additive tank is empty. This tank contents is not measured (as far as I know), it is judged by counting up the amount injected, which happens after each fuel tank fill. It is many 1000s of miles from additive tank full to empty, so it may have only happened recently.

Thus a FACM reset (via Forscan) may be enough to make it think the tank is full, and stop giving that error. That error is serious (if a DPF is fitted), and may be enough to put the car into a reduced power mode.

Another option would to fill the additive tank with diesel, assuming it is still connected to the main fuel tank. And then do a prime and reset sequence, the same as if it was Eolys in the tank.

The FACM is an independent electronic module, with software of its own. So re-mapping the PCM would not automatically alter the way the FACM works. It is connected to the PCM via the HS-CAN bus, which is how it tells the PCM the tank is empty, and to put the warning up. Hence the pair of codes.

[jcr]

Thank you for all your help Peter. 

Is resetting the facm a different thing from clearing the codes in forscan? If so how do I go about doing it?

Jason

[Tdci-Peter]

6 minutes ago, jcr said:

Is resetting the facm a different thing from clearing the codes in forscan?

Yes. I believe you are using the Windows version of Forscan, it has a service functions menu (Spanner Icon). There should be a module reset or reset adaptions option for the FACM (Fuel Additive Control Module) in there. If it is not there, then it usually means it is not needed or valid for your vehicle. Forscan gets much of its info from the vehicle, and usually displays all available functions.

There is usually a prime FACM procedure as well, from what others say. I can't check this, as my car does not have a FACM or DPF, so nothing appears on Forscan. But I can probably track down some threads where this has been done.

[jcr]

9 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Yes. I believe you are using the Windows version of Forscan, it has a service functions menu (Spanner Icon). There should be a module reset or reset adaptions option for the FACM (Fuel Additive Control Module) in there. If it is not there, then it usually means it is not needed or valid for your vehicle. Forscan gets much of its info from the vehicle, and usually displays all available functions.

There is usually a prime FACM procedure as well, from what others say. I can't check this, as my car does not have a FACM or DPF, so nothing appears on Forscan. But I can probably track down some threads where this has been done.

thanks for all your help Peter. i did the refill the addative tank option in forscan and it has cured all the cars problems. the warning alarm has gone off and the turbo is working again.

i'm a very happy chappy thanks to you. 

[jcr]

took car out on motorway yesterday and discovered turbo is still down on boost. i drive quite sedately around town so its not noticeable during my normal journeys.

using more than about 50% throttle is when it becomes noticeable, the acceleration just doesnt pick up.

plugged in forscan and there is now error code p0299-61.

does anyone know what this could be?

have ordered  a can of wynns turbo cleaner as it seemed like something cheap and easy to try

[Tdci-Peter]

On 9/2/2017 at 8:29 PM, jcr said:

the dpf was disabled and the car remapped a couple of years ago

Do you know if the dpf was removed or gutted, or modified. If not, it is likely that it is getting full of soot and that will cause enough pressure drop in the exhaust to prevent normal turbo operation.

P0299 just means the measured inlet manifold pressure is below expectations. There could be quite a lot of causes.

If not the dpf being blocked, then I think the next suspect is the turbo actuator system, especially if it is vacuum operated. There have been quite a few cases of the solenoid or its hoses failing. Some 1.6TDCIs have an electrical, motor driven actuator, but earlier ones have a vacuum operated one, controlled by a solenoid valve hidden down the back of the engine.

I saw the P0299 in your post above, it did not seem connected to the FACM problem, but it went away, so I hoped it was just a one off for some odd reason.

[jcr]

thank you for your help once again Peter.

i dont know what exactly was done to the dpf, i dont own the car i just rent it.

everything was running fine until the last big fault which the owner said was the egr valve, which was replaced.

the garage used i have very little faith in after several issues in the past.

can these potential problems be tested with forscan or will i have to get the spanners out?

[Tdci-Peter]

13 hours ago, jcr said:

can these potential problems be tested with forscan or will i have to get the spanners out?

Good question!

A good answer is quite a lot harder.

Forscan will display the reading from the DPF DP sensor. This measures the pressure drop over the DPF. But in the cases I have seen where the DPF is "removed", it is mapped out to read zero, and hence kid the ECU that the DPF is ok. So first thing to look at is the various DPF related PIDs (measured or calculated values stored in the ECU), to see if they have all been deleted or mapped to read zero, or still read something.

These PIDS include DP, Exhaust temperature (In & out sometimes), km since last regen, and distance to AshFull, and maybe more.

If these PIDs have been tampered with, then there are more direct ways to test if the DPF is blocked, but will involve spanners and / or multimeters. Measuring the voltage signal from the DP sensor, putting a home-made manometer across the DPF, or looking inside it after removing it are three options. None are dead easy.

However, there have been a few threads lately about defective turbo actuators, usually the solenoid that applies vacuum to the turbo. That is quite a cheap thing, though not easy to get to.

Forscan can also log the turbo boost pressure, and the control signal, along with rpm & throttle position. But with only the MAP (pressure) reading to go by, it would be hard to tell the difference between a failed valve, and blocked airways.

A sample of a log from my car is below. FRP is Fuel Rail pressure, MAP is boost pressure, APP is Accelerator Pedal Position. It just shows the sort of data you can get. I can give more info on how to set up and get these logs if you want, but they are only aids, and often do not directly point to a specific defect, unfortunately.

I am not sure I see the link between EGR and P0299, usually the EGR will fully close at high throttle openings. But Forscan will also monitor EGR position. Or you could try fitting a blanking plate. That is cheap & easy. In some cases it puts the MIL on with a EGR error, but it should not cause limp mode, and Forscan will tell you if P0299 is still present, or just the EGR error.

 

One thing that is relatively easy to test, and is a frequent failure on these engines, is leaks or splits in the hoses all the way from the turbo outlet to the inlet manifold. But you need to look or feel very thoroughly, they are often hidden at the back of the pipes. Usually there is some sort of whooshing noise if there is a leak, but it is not guaranteed.

 

[jcr]

Had the bonnet up and did a visual check of the hoses, all seemed ok. 

I did notice that the rod on the actuator doesn't move when I start/stop the engine. Is this normal? I thought the rod was supposed to move into its body when the engine starts and move out when it stops?

[Tdci-Peter]

15 hours ago, jcr said:

I thought the rod was supposed to move into its body when the engine starts and move out when it stops?

That does sound right. According to:

http://forscan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=880#p2866

With no vacuum on the actuator, the turbo is in max boost condition. Energising the solenoid puts vacuum on the actuator, and puts the turbo into minimum boost condition.

Since at idle, or at low revs, there is no need for any boost, I would expect the ECU to energise the valve as you start the engine, then the actuator rod should move as the engine starts, and vacuum builds up.

This assumes you have the vacuum operated turbo, some (later?) 1.6TDCIs have an electric actuator, I believe.

Can anyone with a working 1.6TDCI verify this?