Bent valves=smoke?

[mike-evans]

My dad is having problems after a attempt to have a timing belt replacement (off a retired mech). It is tapping, smoking and slightly down on power, a garage has advised him to replace the head after he checked it and the timing was 2 teeth out. So my dad got a re-conned head and ready to fit on. Its going to a garage this week, but is hoping nothing major in bottom end is damaged etc, just the valves? Would a bent valve make it smoke? Hoping this re-conned head wil sort it?

[artscot79]

My dad is having problems after a attempt to have a timing belt replacement (off a retired mech). It is tapping, smoking and slightly down on power, a garage has advised him to replace the head after he checked it and the timing was 2 teeth out. So my dad got a re-conned head and ready to fit on. Its going to a garage this week, but is hoping nothing major in bottom end is damaged etc, just the valves? Would a bent valve make it smoke? Hoping this re-conned head wil sort it?

the smoke and tapping is because the timings out i doubt its damaged the valves ide have had the timing put right then see if alls ok

[mike-evans]

the smoke and tapping is because the timings out i doubt its damaged the valves ide have had the timing put right then see if alls ok

we took it to a garage and he said it was 2 teeth out and so adjusted it in, then it was stil smoking? When timing belt was being done the guy rang and said hg was on its way out/gone, so had it skimed and new gasket fitted. So we think he took shim buckets out and fitted back in wrong order= tapping, need adjusting? Why would it smoke though, smoke from burning oil? But how/why?

[artscot79]

we took it to a garage and he said it was 2 teeth out and so adjusted it in, then it was stil smoking? When timing belt was being done the guy rang and said hg was on its way out/gone, so had it skimed and new gasket fitted. So we think he took shim buckets out and fitted back in wrong order= tapping, need adjusting? Why would it smoke though, smoke from burning oil? But how/why?

theres few things im not getting first if a garage has fitted the shims the wrong way round or you believe they have you should be taking it back to them second how did they ascertain that the head gasket was on its way out by doing the timing belt? if the oil was full of a creamy residue car overheating or they did a sniffer test ide understand but you havent said that i think these people are taking you for a mug mate to get the work are we talking black smoke or white smoke white can be a sign of coolant getting into the combustion ie gasket gone but you would have to keep topping the coolant up black is burning oil

the link will help better http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshoo...S_exhaust_2.htm

do these peolpe know what they are doing i have my doubts as you can reda it can be many things depending on the smoke i hope they havent cocked it up

[mike-evans]

theres few things im not getting first if a garage has fitted the shims the wrong way round or you believe they have you should be taking it back to them second how did they ascertain that the head gasket was on its way out by doing the timing belt? if the oil was full of a creamy residue car overheating or they did a sniffer test ide understand but you havent said that i think these people are taking you for a mug mate to get the work are we talking black smoke or white smoke white can be a sign of coolant getting into the combustion ie gasket gone but you would have to keep topping the coolant up black is burning oil

the link will help better http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshoo...S_exhaust_2.htm

do these peolpe know what they are doing i have my doubts as you can reda it can be many things depending on the smoke i hope they havent cocked it up

ok lets start again. Took my dads 02 1.4 focus to a friend (retired mech) to have timing belt replaced. Guy rang next day and said we got problems and the hg was leaking, he said it was rusty and showing signs of leaks, as you said, dont know how he would know that by doing timing belt? Anyway, had it skimmed and gasket replaced. We now think he timmed it up wrong and bent a valve and used hg as a excuse to get head off and replace valve/s? We had it back and it was tapping and underpower, (car was mint going in and running perfect), he said give it a week or 2 and it wil quieten down when the hyd tappets fil up with oil, i done some searching and found that it has shimmed tappets and it would not quieten down. So took it a local garage (a guy i was in school with) and he said timming was 2 teeth out, adjusued it and it is slightly quieter and stil smoking (white). He thinks the guy doing the belt removed the shim buckets when head was off and refitted them in a different order to what they came out and now need adjusting which is massively time consuming. So my dad got a fuly reconned head to fit on and hopefully wil fix it and hopefuly nothing damaged down bottom? What you think now? The car runs but smokes white, slightly underpower and very poor on fuel, he hasnt realy used the car since having it back but got 15 miles to £20 of petrol, possibly caused by valves not closing correctly at correct times due to wrong buckets in wrong places??

[artscot79]

ok lets start again. Took my dads 02 1.4 focus to a friend (retired mech) to have timing belt replaced. Guy rang next day and said we got problems and the hg was leaking, he said it was rusty and showing signs of leaks, as you said, dont know how he would know that by doing timing belt? Anyway, had it skimmed and gasket replaced. We now think he timmed it up wrong and bent a valve and used hg as a excuse to get head off and replace valve/s? We had it back and it was tapping and underpower, (car was mint going in and running perfect), he said give it a week or 2 and it wil quieten down when the hyd tappets fil up with oil, i done some searching and found that it has shimmed tappets and it would not quieten down. So took it a local garage (a guy i was in school with) and he said timming was 2 teeth out, adjusued it and it is slightly quieter and stil smoking (white). He thinks the guy doing the belt removed the shim buckets when head was off and refitted them in a different order to what they came out and now need adjusting which is massively time consuming. So my dad got a fuly reconned head to fit on and hopefully wil fix it and hopefuly nothing damaged down bottom? What you think now? The car runs but smokes white, slightly underpower and very poor on fuel, he hasnt realy used the car since having it back but got 15 miles to £20 of petrol, possibly caused by valves not closing correctly at correct times due to wrong buckets in wrong places??

okay i have it now it sounds like that very well could be the case that the shim buckets are incorrect without the engine out it would have been extremely unlikely he could tell if the head was gone as you said it was running perfect so it sounds like youre assumption is correct he cocked up and bent a valve and used that excuse to get the head off unfortunately a perfectly good head was skimmed

if the valves arent opening and closing then yes you will be down onb power and it will smoke so the recon heads the way to go did you go back to the retired mechanic and tell him what you suspect

[mike-evans]

okay i have it now it sounds like that very well could be the case that the shim buckets are incorrect without the engine out it would have been extremely unlikely he could tell if the head was gone as you said it was running perfect so it sounds like youre assumption is correct he cocked up and bent a valve and used that excuse to get the head off unfortunately a perfectly good head was skimmed

if the valves arent opening and closing then yes you will be down onb power and it will smoke so the recon heads the way to go did you go back to the retired mechanic and tell him what you suspect

Yeh I did go back to the retired mech to say we think the buckets are in the wrong order and possibly need changing back, but he said he didnt know how to do them.....he gave us all the money back that we gave him, but he did not tel us of any mistakes he has made. The car is at the garage now and wil hopefuly be worked on tomorrow. First thing a mech from the garage said was it sounds like tappets and he has more than likely mixed them all up, fingers crossed its that simple and all wil be fixed with this reconned head, hopefull

y

[artscot79]

Yeh I did go back to the retired mech to say we think the buckets are in the wrong order and possibly need changing back, but he said he didnt know how to do them.....he gave us all the money back that we gave him, but he did not tel us of any mistakes he has made. The car is at the garage now and wil hopefuly be worked on tomorrow. First thing a mech from the garage said was it sounds like tappets and he has more than likely mixed them all up, fingers crossed its that simple and all wil be fixed with this reconned head, hopefull

y

fingers crossed

[mike-evans]

fingers crossed

ok, update. My dad has had the car back after a garage replaced the head with the reconned one we bought. Car is running very quiet but smoking, a whiteish smoke my dad says (i havnt seen it), why? The mech who changed the heads over said the pistons are nice and tight and seem good. Why the smoke? He said it could be a ring, would a compression test show that? Another mech in the garage said the oil breather pipe behind the manifold is squashed and could be the reason, replace it and see, only a genuine ford part he said? What you guys think of any of this?

[artscot79]

ok, update. My dad has had the car back after a garage replaced the head with the reconned one we bought. Car is running very quiet but smoking, a whiteish smoke my dad says (i havnt seen it), why? The mech who changed the heads over said the pistons are nice and tight and seem good. Why the smoke? He said it could be a ring, would a compression test show that? Another mech in the garage said the oil breather pipe behind the manifold is squashed and could be the reason, replace it and see, only a genuine ford part he said? What you guys think of any of this?

replace the breather and give it an oil and ilter change then give it a good run this should clear it up if it doesnt then a compression test is the way to go is the oil sludgy any water in the oil? doers the smoke jhave a smell to it and is it smoke and not the exhaust burning of the condensation it could also be the cat burning any crap off that got through with the dodgy head

if its the pipe i think it is its a vacum pipe to the pcv valve if this squashes up it can cause condensation in the engine which would give you the white smoke see my post stumble fix its easy to do 10quid odds for the pipe

[mike-evans]

replace the breather and give it an oil and ilter change then give it a good run this should clear it up if it doesnt then a compression test is the way to go is the oil sludgy any water in the oil? doers the smoke jhave a smell to it and is it smoke and not the exhaust burning of the condensation it could also be the cat burning any crap off that got through with the dodgy head

if its the pipe i think it is its a vacum pipe to the pcv valve if this squashes up it can cause condensation in the engine which would give you the white smoke see my post stumble fix its easy to do 10quid odds for the pipe

TBH I dont know much about the smoke, my dad didnt have the car back until late so cant realy say yet? Just the mech said it was smoking, but as you say, might be a build up of what was getting through into the cat while it was running poor? The car was running great before it went to have all this problems, so dont see how we have ring issues. How do the oil seals on the piston leak, is it just due to wear? Would a compression test highlight this, i have a gauge there so wil try on weekend, and change the breather pipe. The garage identified 2 valves that had been replaced, so he had bent 2 and tried covering it up!

[artscot79]

TBH I dont know much about the smoke, my dad didnt have the car back until late so cant realy say yet? Just the mech said it was smoking, but as you say, might be a build up of what was getting through into the cat while it was running poor? The car was running great before it went to have all this problems, so dont see how we have ring issues. How do the oil seals on the piston leak, is it just due to wear? Would a compression test highlight this, i have a gauge there so wil try on weekend, and change the breather pipe. The garage identified 2 valves that had been replaced, so he had bent 2 and tried covering it up!

the sad truth is that when someone does what the guy did to the car you dont know what else he did theres always a possibility the cat is now knackered to be honest with you if it is still smoking after the breather pipe etc has been changed it needs to go to ford to find out just how bad it is and what needs to be done simply it needs diagnostics that can check everything as you could spend a fortune trying things and the problem may/may not be internal

[mike-evans]

the sad truth is that when someone does what the guy did to the car you dont know what else he did theres always a possibility the cat is now knackered to be honest with you if it is still smoking after the breather pipe etc has been changed it needs to go to ford to find out just how bad it is and what needs to be done simply it needs diagnostics that can check everything as you could spend a fortune trying things and the problem may/may not be internal

*UPDATE* Changed the pipe that I mentioned in the previous posts, which infact was a emissions pipe (3 piece pipe with a t section in it) that is behind the inlet manifold, and it made it run alot worse, (car was running ok in the morning and hardly any smoke) now bellowing out with whiteish smoke and revs dropped down enough twice which made it cut out....idles is stil lumpy, as we thought this pipe that had gone soft would cure the lumpy idle? There was a white car parked behind my dads and had a black patch on it from my dads smoking exhaust, the black on the white car smelt like fireworks and was like a sooty texture? Would this be a sign of running rich? i.e a sensor down? Next step I think is a diagnostics plug in...

[artscot79]

*UPDATE* Changed the pipe that I mentioned in the previous posts, which infact was a emissions pipe (3 piece pipe with a t section in it) that is behind the inlet manifold, and it made it run alot worse, (car was running ok in the morning and hardly any smoke) now bellowing out with whiteish smoke and revs dropped down enough twice which made it cut out....idles is stil lumpy, as we thought this pipe that had gone soft would cure the lumpy idle? There was a white car parked behind my dads and had a black patch on it from my dads smoking exhaust, the black on the white car smelt like fireworks and was like a sooty texture? Would this be a sign of running rich? i.e a sensor down? Next step I think is a diagnostics plug in...

i think the cars gonna need major ford treatment left for a good few days and thoroughly checked out.the car shouldnt have run worse with the pipe replaced I assume this is a Cat exhaust and injectors. This is bad news but it may be as simple as a failed oxygen probe in the exhaust system causing the open loop startup mixture to be defualt settings.

This can damage your Cat.it could be leaking injector worn piston rings which means a compression test its defo running rich so youre cats probably shot now

[mike-evans]

i think the cars gonna need major ford treatment left for a good few days and thoroughly checked out.the car shouldnt have run worse with the pipe replaced I assume this is a Cat exhaust and injectors. This is bad news but it may be as simple as a failed oxygen probe in the exhaust system causing the open loop startup mixture to be defualt settings.

This can damage your Cat.it could be leaking injector worn piston rings which means a compression test its defo running rich so youre cats probably shot now

yeh think it needs to go to ford to establish whats wrong and what needs to be done, what wil they actually do at the garage, wil it be a diagnostic plug in and that wil give answers? Any idea what ford chargd for a diagnostics? I borrowed my mates code reader today and it picked up 2 faults, one was P1289 which I beleive was from the head temp sensor that got accidentaly unpluged and put the management light on, the second was P0172 which say too rich bank 1? Is that a 02 sensor? Spark plugs, all were black and had wet threads, 2 were wet on the electrodes, why? Put fresh plugs in and run it, driving behind my dad and smoking slightly and strong fuel smeling, also smelt of rotten eggs and fireworks? Garage is now only way to go, just trying to get an understanding of possibilities etc..