Ruiz123

Flash Code 16 - No crank.

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16 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

There is some confusion about Fusebox info for the Fiesta, made worse by the way the Mk numbers have got mixed up, the 5th generation (2002-2008) is called Mk6 in UK.

In the site below, it shows an engine bay fuse box for this date range:

http://www.autogenius.info/ford-fiesta-mk5-fuse-box/

But it also shows a single (internal) fusebox:

http://www.autogenius.info/ford-fiesta-mk6-fuse-box-diagram-eu-version/

In the single fusebox version, there only seems to be one likely fuse, with the engine symbol on it.

In the 2 fusebox version there is F19 in the internal fusebox, and a few more (F28, F32, F36) in the engine bay fusebox that may be relevant.

No fuse box in Engine Bay on this Dec05 Fiesta.

I just removed the ecu connector from the ecu. Omg what a mess, ended up catching and detaching 2 wires so looks like a loom of some degree is needed now. Why put such a stupid welded bolt on it.

More to my misery, another eBay seller says the theft kit needs to be programmed which I don't understand as its everything in the kit?

Bad day lol

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1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

another eBay seller says the theft kit needs to be programmed which I don't understand as its everything in the kit

No, I am not sure why they say that. If it was diesel, then the 1.6TDCI needs injectors & EGR calibration data to be programmed in. But I think on a petrol, most of the stuff (ignition timing, fuel injectors) is self-adjusting. It may need a bit of time to settle down.

Forscan can programme injectors & EGRs where needed. Once it works, it should come up with a menu of available service functions. Generally it will have any essential functions listed. Sometimes a "reset adaptions" is needed, to restore factory defaults and enable it to learn new values, this should also show in the menu.

Repairing wires with ordinary screw terminal blocks works fine for a short term fix. I have got several on non-critical extra sensors under the bonnet on my Focus, that have survived a few years now. There are heat shrink, sealed, wire joints available for a longer term fix. Google "heat shrink wire connectors" to have a look.

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25 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

No, I am not sure why they say that. If it was diesel, then the 1.6TDCI needs injectors & EGR calibration data to be programmed in. But I think on a petrol, most of the stuff (ignition timing, fuel injectors) is self-adjusting. It may need a bit of time to settle down.

Forscan can programme injectors & EGRs where needed. Once it works, it should come up with a menu of available service functions. Generally it will have any essential functions listed. Sometimes a "reset adaptions" is needed, to restore factory defaults and enable it to learn new values, this should also show in the menu.

Repairing wires with ordinary screw terminal blocks works fine for a short term fix. I have got several on non-critical extra sensors under the bonnet on my Focus, that have survived a few years now. There are heat shrink, sealed, wire joints available for a longer term fix. Google "heat shrink wire connectors" to have a look.

Thanks Peter, although problem being the wires have met their fate at the point where they enter the plastic, small amount of copper left, poss could temp solder just for a connection.

Tested the ecu connector, had batt voltage on one only, but it was blue???

All other pins registered 0v.

Would be good to have a pinout or diagram lol, going to ring Ford Tech again (from work as not cheap lol)

Be good to see what they say, last I spoke to them they had me to the 6-14 resistance point 

Saga continues.....

 

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37 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Tested the ecu connector, had batt voltage on one only, but it was blue

Was that live with the Ignition off?

There is usually at least one continuous supply, and one ignition supply to the ECU. It has to only fully power up when the ignition is on.

Also you can check if the engine fuse in the fusebox is live always, or just with ignition. If you measured an always live feed at the ECU, and the fuse is ignition power, then that ignition power wire must be broken.

Getting some wiring info out of Ford would be very helpful. Haynes manuals have some wiring, but on-line sources are noticeable by their absence, apart from the Focus Mk2 & Mk3. I wonder how easy it is to remove the fuse box? That would help in tracing fuses through to connector pins, and then to wire colours.

(Ignore what I first said about the BCM/GEM, on the Focus the BCM/GEM/Fusebox are all one thing, but not on the Fiesta.)

Edited by Tdci-Peter
Add note about BCM

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16 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Was that live with the Ignition off?

There is usually at least one continuous supply, and one ignition supply to the ECU. It has to only fully power up when the ignition is on.

Also you can check if the engine fuse in the fusebox is live always, or just with ignition. If you measured an always live feed at the ECU, and the fuse is ignition power, then that ignition power wire must be broken.

Getting some wiring info out of Ford would be very helpful. Haynes manuals have some wiring, but on-line sources are noticeable by their absence, apart from the Focus Mk2 & Mk3. A spare BCM (or GEM), like in the kit, would help in tracing fuses through to connector pins, and then to wire colours.

I'll check again, but beleive it was batt voltage at ign on and off.

Weird think is that I unplugged all possible fuses, i.e eml symbol, cigarette lighter and 1 other and I still had the voltage????

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1 minute ago, Ruiz123 said:

beleive it was batt voltage at ign on and off.

Yes, if that was continuous bat voltage, then it looks like the ignition feed from the Engine fuse is missing.

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20 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Was that live with the Ignition off?

There is usually at least one continuous supply, and one ignition supply to the ECU. It has to only fully power up when the ignition is on.

Also you can check if the engine fuse in the fusebox is live always, or just with ignition. If you measured an always live feed at the ECU, and the fuse is ignition power, then that ignition power wire must be broken.

Getting some wiring info out of Ford would be very helpful. Haynes manuals have some wiring, but on-line sources are noticeable by their absence, apart from the Focus Mk2 & Mk3. A spare BCM (or GEM), like in the kit, would help in tracing fuses through to connector pins, and then to wire colours.

Which would be the engine fuse Peter? 

20180114_170632.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Yes, if that was continuous bat voltage, then it looks like the ignition feed from the Engine fuse is missing.

Batt voltage with key out completely.

Batt voltage with key in and ign on.

Would this be the ecu power supply?

Seems strange being blue?

Cheers

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5 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Which would be the engine fuse

My guess would be the 3A one (F16), is the continuous supply to the PCM. And the 15A one (F12) would be an ignition supply to it.

R11 looks interesting, I bet that is the engine management relay, that also supplies power to the PCM.

Most ECUs I have seen wiring for have this 3A always on battery feed, an igniton feed, and a relay operated feed.

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1 minute ago, Ruiz123 said:

Would this be the ecu power supply?

Seems strange being blue?

No, that will just be a standby power feed. If it is worth anything, on the '08 on Fiesta, the standby power feed from a 7.5A fuse to the ECU is Blue/Red.

So it looks like the main feed is missing. R11 may be important here.

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F16 11.4v with slight drop when ign turned on.

F12 0.01v with increase to 0.07v when ign turned on.

Can't I test R11 with DVMM?

Edited by Ruiz123

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2 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Can't I test R11 with DVMM?

Usually the engine management relay is a simple 4 pin, normally open one. A DMM can identify the coil pins (a stable resistance reading obtained), but then you would have to apply 12v somehow to those coil pins  Ideally I would identify which polarity the coil was used in by probing the sockets for the coil on the fuse box. This will also tell you if the relay is being energised.

A few relays are polarity sensitive, they have a diode to suppress the back emf. But this is not common.

When the relay is energised, then the other two pins should register a short circuit.

But maybe more important is to try to see which of the relay pins in the fusebox are live, which are earth, and which go to the PCM. I would expect one coil pin, and one contact pin to be live, and the other two pins to go to the PCM. That is if it is like other PCM wiring I have seen.

 

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8 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Usually the engine management relay is a simple 4 pin, normally open one. A DMM can identify the coil pins (a stable resistance reading obtained), but then you would have to apply 12v somehow to those coil pins  Ideally I would identify which polarity the coil was used in by probing the sockets for the coil on the fuse box. This will also tell you if the relay is being energised.

A few relays are polarity sensitive, they have a diode to suppress the back emf. But this is not common.

When the relay is energised, then the other two pins should register a short circuit.

But maybe more important is to try to see which of the relay pins in the fusebox are live, which are earth, and which go to the PCM. I would expect one coil pin, and one contact pin to be live, and the other two pins to go to the PCM. That is if it is like other PCM wiring I have seen.

 

Just tested the R11 relay. Stable resistance across 2 pins. Other 2 pins used for 12v and ground. Whilst relay closed, low continuity measured across 1st 2 pins.

Looks like the relay is ok in itself.

Will check pins at board soon.

Thanks Peter

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3 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Just tested the R11 relay. Stable resistance across 2 pins.

I was adding this when you answered!

I guess the voltage readings on the fuses are with the fuses in. 11.4v sounds a bit low, unless the battery is getting discharged by all this testing & no charge. I would expect F16 to be the live supply you saw at the ECU connector, though I note you said it stayed up when the fuse was removed. However, DMMs do give some very odd readings when measuring floating (not connected to anything) circuits, so this is not 100% diagnostic. Removing the fuse and buzzing through from fuse (non-live end) to ECU connector with the DMM in continuity test (or low ohms test mode) would be better. But would need an extension wire to reach, I expect.

I would expect F12 to be the main supply, it may well be via R11. But I can only guess. The ECU needs to be able to detect, and be fully powered up, when the ignition is on, but with only two fuses, I am not sure how this is done here. Maybe it does not need an additional ignition off supply. Most modern ECUs use a relay to keep themselves fully powered up for a while after ignition off.

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24 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I was adding this when you answered!

I guess the voltage readings on the fuses are with the fuses in.

*YES

11.4v sounds a bit low, unless the battery is getting discharged by all this testing & no charge.

*YES, i some times connect my other car battery via jump leads to try and avoid getti g a flat battery.

I would expect F16 to be the live supply you saw at the ECU connector, though I note you said it stayed up when the fuse was removed.

*YES, fuse out, battery voltage still confused me.

However, DMMs do give some very odd readings when measuring floating (not connected to anything) circuits, so this is not 100% diagnostic. Removing the fuse and buzzing through from fuse (non-live end) to ECU connector with the DMM in continuity test (or low ohms test mode) would be better.

*Buzzing (Connecting?) Are you saying non-live fuse to pin I was getting batt voltage? With the fuse out I notice one receiver of the board is batt voltage, the other very very low voltage ( is this low voltage the 'non-live' end?

But would need an extension wire to reach, I expect.

*Will get tomorrow 

I would expect F12 to be the main supply, it may well be via R11. But I can only guess. The ECU needs to be able to detect, and be fully powered up, when the ignition is on, but with only two fuses, I am not sure how this is done here. Maybe it does not need an additional ignition off supply. Most modern ECUs use a relay to keep themselves fully powered up for a while after ignition off.

*Is that the 'KAM' relay?

 

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3 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Are you saying non-live fuse to pin I was getting batt voltage? With the fuse out I notice one receiver of the board is batt voltage, the other very very low voltage ( is this low voltage the 'non-live' end?

Yes, the low or floating voltage will be the non-live end.

DMMs are very sensitive, and can measure voltages due to very low leakage currents, just touching the probes will give readings. It is always a bit of a problem measuring points that go open circuit, ie no connection to batt. or to earth. They tend to give variable readings that change if you touch the probe.

Buzzing through is a term for doing a continuity test, many meters can buzz or sound a tone when there is low resistance between the probes.

Have you checked behind the battery for any fusebox? One owner of a 2004 Fiesta has one there, and it is an EU (UK) car by the sound of it: (I am pretty sure you have looked there, as the ECU is near there somewhere, so you would have seen it!)

I am not sure what KAM relay is, I am calling R11 the engine management relay, though that is based on other ECUs & diagrams. It holds power on the ECU after ignition off.

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4 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Yes, the low or floating voltage will be the non-live end.

DMMs are very sensitive, and can measure voltages due to very low leakage currents, just touching the probes will give readings. It is always a bit of a problem measuring points that go open circuit, ie no connection to batt. or to earth. They tend to give variable readings that change if you touch the probe.

Buzzing through is a term for doing a continuity test, many meters can buzz or sound a tone when there is low resistance between the probes.

Have you checked behind the battery for any fusebox? One owner of a 2004 Fiesta has one there, and it is an EU (UK) car by the sound of it: (I am pretty sure you have looked there, as the ECU is near there somewhere, so you would have seen it!)

I am not sure what KAM relay is, I am calling R11 the engine management relay, though that is based on other ECUs & diagrams. It holds power on the ECU after ignition off.

Keep Alive Memory, read about it and thought I had seen it on my fuse box diagram but no !

I have, from the positive terminal of the battery a lead that connects on a box on the side of the battery, but I have had this off and checked, cleaned etc etc, picture below.

 

 

Screenshot_20180114-191612.png

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3 hours ago, Ruiz123 said:

Keep Alive Memory, read about it and thought I had seen it on my fuse box diagram but no !

I have, from the positive terminal of the battery a lead that connects on a box on the side of the battery,

The Keep Alive Memory will be powered from a continuous battery supply, probably via the 3A fuse, F16.

I suspect, though can not be certain, that R11 is involved in supplying the main, operational supply to the ECU. This will be switched by the ignition, though possibly with an option to extend it after ignition off.

The big fuses make sense to me, they supply the really heavy loads, to avoid thick (expensive!) copper cables into the car body. If these fuses are all intact, it is unlikely they are a problem. They just don't seem to be documented anywhere!

 

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Evening,

Call to Ford Tech today:

Very surprised no communication with ECU with Can 6/14 proving.

Fuses F15 and F16 are for ECU. 

R11. Fuse box Pins 1 and 3 should be batt voltage. Pin 2 is live out to PCM. Pin 4 although not discussed must be ground.

Pin M8 (Blue/Black) on ECU connector is ECU supply from Live Out/Pin 3 on R11.

Also have 4 x Ground Pins on ECU connector to check.

Also confirmed that the theft kit would work without programming.

Will update asap.

Regards 

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1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

Pin 4 although not discussed must be ground.

I suspect Pin 4 may go to the PCM, or to some other relay. If the coil had permanent battery live on one end, and the other end of the coil was ground, then it would not do any useful job. Pin 4 might be ground if the other end of the coil is only live when the ignition is on.

But it is a big step forward to find a live supply to the ECU seems to be missing. Just need to find why, or find a way to get power to it.

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25 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I suspect Pin 4 may go to the PCM, or to some other relay. If the coil had permanent battery live on one end, and the other end of the coil was ground, then it would not do any useful job. Pin 4 might be ground if the other end of the coil is only live when the ignition is on.

But it is a big step forward to find a live supply to the ECU seems to be missing. Just need to find why, or find a way to get power to it.

I am not entirely convinced the ECU is NOT getting power, I had batt voltage yesterday, have had time to check that it was from the same pin that Ford Tech say, although they say blue/black and I had batt from a blue (I'm sure there is a blue/ black next to it).

When I get a chance tonight I will get my head under the bonnet for this and also pull the relay and check Pin 2 for live out.

If no 12v at the ecu could I just bridge from positive terminal to blue/black with an online Fuse, surely this would guarantee ecu supply from a known source?

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45 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

If no 12v at the ecu could I just bridge from positive terminal to blue/black with an online Fuse, surely this would guarantee ecu supply from a known source?

Yes, but!...

Before applying 12v to an ECU terminal, I would double or triple check that it was the right terminal, no other blue/black wires, and the terminal number matched. And that the known earths are good.

If possible I would try to check the wiring more, to see where the fault actually lay. If I could trace it to a definitely broken wire, then I would feel much more confident about applying battery voltage.

All ECUs I have seen wiring for need more than one supply, I think the Blue one you found was an always live one. There should be an ignition switched supply also. I would be interested to hear what voltages were on the R11 sockets with ignition off and on. And if any of its pins can be traced through to the ECU connector. And if and when R11 is being energised (voltage on its coil).

A bridge from the battery positive to a proven missing supply would be ok for a test, but it should, if possible, be re-routed to its proper fuse and ignition switched source for use.

If 12v is connected to the wrong place, electronic components can be damaged in much less time than it takes a fuse to blow. So caution is needed!

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12 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Yes, but!...

Before applying 12v to an ECU terminal, I would double or triple check that it was the right terminal, no other blue/black wires, and the terminal number matched. And that the known earths are good.

If possible I would try to check the wiring more, to see where the fault actually lay. If I could trace it to a definitely broken wire, then I would feel much more confident about applying battery voltage.

All ECUs I have seen wiring for need more than one supply, I think the Blue one you found was an always live one. There should be an ignition switched supply also. I would be interested to hear what voltages were on the R11 sockets with ignition off and on. And if any of its pins can be traced through to the ECU connector. And if and when R11 is being energised (voltage on its coil).

A bridge from the battery positive to a proven missing supply would be ok for a test, but it should, if possible, be re-routed to its proper fuse and ignition switched source for use.

If 12v is connected to the wrong place, electronic components can be damaged in much less time than it takes a fuse to blow. So caution is needed!

Yes I agree. Just wondered if it prove a fault existed with PCM supply beforehand.

 I will post those voltages later 👍

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Update.

M8 Pin (R11/Pin 2 Live Out to ECU) - 0v with ignition on or off

R11:

Pin 1 and Pin 3 - Batt voltage as per Ford Tech.

Pin 2 (Live out to ECM) - 0V

All above same with ignition on or off.

hmmmm......

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Oh and that there is 4 x Blue/Black.

M8 is one of them.

Weird though is M7 is batt voltage still?

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