Ruiz123

Flash Code 16 - No crank.

Recommended Posts

And I think the Ford Tech meant fuses F12 (15a) and F16 (3a) as F15 is Fuel Pump (petrol sign).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

I assume that Pin 2 socket (as it is live out to PCM) should have some of voltage?

Or does it only 'live out to ECU' under specific circumstances/additional connections?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

M8 Pin (R11/Pin 2 Live Out to ECU) - 0v with ignition on or off

R11:

Pin 1 and Pin 3 - Batt voltage as per Ford Tech.

Pin 2 (Live out to ECM) - 0V

All above same with ignition on or off.

And I think the Ford Tech meant fuses F12 (15a) and F16 (3a) as F15 is Fuel Pump (petrol sign)

Pin 2 socket (as it is live out to PCM) should have some of voltage? 

Was the Pin 2 = 0v reading with R11 removed? I assume so since it is hard to take the reading with R11 in place.

And is pin 4 = 0v too?

Pin 2 should only have 12v on it with the relay in and energised, as the power is coming from Pin 1 (the other contact pin?), and going out on pin 2 to the ECU.

Just to check, when testing the relay, are pins 3 & 4 the coil?: Stable resistance in the range 300 ohms to 2k ohms I would expect.

I think the power comes from the battery bus in the fuse box, to Pin 1 of R1, out on Pin 2 of R11 (if in & energised), through Fuse F12, and then on to the ECU at M8. I still suspect Pin 4 is driven by the ECU, so may go to a pin on the ECU connector.

So the key question then becomes: Is the wire from R11 Pin 2 to ECU M8 broken? Or is R11 not being energised, hence not supplying any power. If, as I suggested above, F15 is between R11 pin 2 and the ECU, that could be used as a test point to see if R11 is energising. Also listening close to R11 for any clicks when turning ignition on & off would help.

(It is just possible that F15 is involved as well, the 2008 Fiesta ECU takes its ignition power from the same line as the fuel pump. But I think best to ignore that one for now, finding one missing supply is enough to be getting on with! Though it might just be worth checking the fuse F15 (you probably already have), and see if the car has an inertia fuel cut-off switch, check it has not been activated.)

Ughh, I wish I had a decent circuit diagram to work from. My guesses may be based on experience & knowledge, but they are still guesses!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Answer in progess! (need to collect quotes from 2 pages)

Thanks Peter. Will read 1st thing as up at 5am 😔.

Theft kit should arrive tomorrow 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Was the Pin 2 = 0v reading with R11 removed? I assume so since it is hard to take the reading with R11 in place.

And is pin 4 = 0v too?

Pin 2 should only have 12v on it with the relay in and energised, as the power is coming from Pin 1 (the other contact pin?), and going out on pin 2 to the ECU.

Just to check, when testing the relay, are pins 3 & 4 the coil?: Stable resistance in the range 300 ohms to 2k ohms I would expect.

I think the power comes from the battery bus in the fuse box, to Pin 1 of R1, out on Pin 2 of R11 (if in & energised), through Fuse F12, and then on to the ECU at M8. I still suspect Pin 4 is driven by the ECU, so may go to a pin on the ECU connector.

So the key question then becomes: Is the wire from R11 Pin 2 to ECU M8 broken? Or is R11 not being energised, hence not supplying any power. If, as I suggested above, F15 is between R11 pin 2 and the ECU, that could be used as a test point to see if R11 is energising. Also listening close to R11 for any clicks when turning ignition on & off would help.

(It is just possible that F15 is involved as well, the 2008 Fiesta ECU takes its ignition power from the same line as the fuel pump. But I think best to ignore that one for now, finding one missing supply is enough to be getting on with! Though it might just be worth checking the fuse F15 (you probably already have), and see if the car has an inertia fuel cut-off switch, check it has not been activated.)

Ughh, I wish I had a decent circuit diagram to work from. My guesses may be based on experience & knowledge, but they are still guesses!

Morning Peter

Speaking with Ford yesterday they advised I can use the Ford etis website to obtain a wiring diagram for a small fee. Hopefully I can screenshot or print off after viewing and I will post up.

Yes relay was removed to obtain a reading on Pin 2.

I will check pin 4 again tonight but I'm sure it was 0v.

I will check which two pins gave me the stable resistance although I remember it was only between 88 and 90 ohms, following a video on YouTube this seemed to be an acceptable resistance parameter.

What would be the best way to use a F12 as a testpoint?

I have never heard any clicks from r11 when turning ignition on or off.

Regards 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ruiz123 said:

I can use the Ford etis website to obtain a wiring diagram for a small fee. Hopefully I can screenshot or print off after viewing and I will post up

Extracting useful diagrams from Etis is not easy! The diagrams are in many small sections, though all the PCM related stuff should be in one section. Some of them are pdfs, but many are only viewable,though they can be printed. If you have a print-to-pdf facility on the computer, this might work ok.

The trouble with pin 4 is it needs to be checked with the relay in, or some substitute resistance. If the relay is not energising, and is functional, then it can not be getting 12v across its coil. One end of the coil is measuring 12v an the socket, the other measuring 0v at the socket, so one of these voltages must change when the relay is connected to them.

Yes I guess 90ohms is ok, that is 1.6W at 12v, which I suppose is not excessive for a cheap (ie Ford) automotive power relay! I am more used to higher spec, lower power relays these days.

I would test for continuity (low resistance, <1ohm) between the relay socket pin2 and either end of F12 socket (F12 removed). Then the other end of F12 should go to ECU pin M8.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Extracting useful diagrams from Etis is not easy! The diagrams are in many small sections, though all the PCM related stuff should be in one section. Some of them are pdfs, but many are only viewable,though they can be printed. If you have a print-to-pdf facility on the computer, this might work ok.

The trouble with pin 4 is it needs to be checked with the relay in, or some substitute resistance. If the relay is not energising, and is functional, then it can not be getting 12v across its coil. One end of the coil is measuring 12v an the socket, the other measuring 0v at the socket, so one of these voltages must change when the relay is connected to them.

Yes I guess 90ohms is ok, that is 1.6W at 12v, which I suppose is not excessive for a cheap (ie Ford) automotive power relay! I am more used to higher spec, lower power relays these days.

I would test for continuity (low resistance, <1ohm) between the relay socket pin2 and either end of F12 socket (F12 removed). Then the other end of F12 should go to ECU pin M8.

 

Where would I start?

£7 for an hours delving.😁

20180116_115013.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your in mechanical, you need to click on wiring diagrams, then power train,engine,engine electronic controls.or if looking for fuse and relays that's under power distribution.thats under general wiring information.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, iantt said:

Your in mechanical, you need to click on wiring diagrams

Hello! A new follower to the saga.!

Thanks, will go back in now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, iantt said:

Your in mechanical, you need to click on wiring diagrams

OMG, confused, don't know where to start with the wiring diagram directory!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

don't know where to start with the wiring diagram directory

Look for PCM or engine control, or similar. And for you engine variant under that heading. I think your engine may be a Sigma type, if that appears. Ian knows a lot more about Etis than me, I find it a scary place!

Though when I last looked, there is a 50 euro minimum fee to access wiring diagrams. It may be different where you are, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Look for PCM or engine control, or similar. And for you engine variant under that heading. I think your engine may be a Sigma type, if that appears. Ian knows a lot more about Etis than me, I find it a scary place!

Though when I last looked, there is a 50 euro minimum fee to access wiring diagrams. It may be different where you are, though.

About to ring Ford Tech again and will ask, good thing is they log all calls and details against the reg so they know the detail of the last call.

Will update soon, but is there anything you would like me to ask on your behalf? ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ruiz123 said:

is there anything you would like me to ask on your behalf?

Yes.

Whether the fuel pump circuit is used to provide an "ignition on" power feed to the PCM, and if so, on what pin. Or if not the fuel pump circuit, is there an "ignition on" feed from anywhere else. That is the missing part for me.

Also where that R11 coil ground pin (4) actually goes.

(The PCM needs to know when the ignition is turned on, and with both feeds located so far being always on, that is missing.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Yes.

Whether the fuel pump circuit is used to provide an "ignition on" power feed to the PCM, and if so, on what pin. Or if not the fuel pump circuit, is there an "ignition on" feed from anywhere else. That is the missing part for me.

Also where that R11 coil ground pin (4) actually goes.

(The PCM needs to know when the ignition is turned on, and with both feeds located so far being always on, that is missing.)

Thanks Peter, will update shortly.

Are you not getting bored of me now ? ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

**Update**

Seems some incorrect information was supplied to me yesterday by Ford (was not the usual chap I speak to, however it was today)

In summary

  • Fuel Pump (Fuse 15) is not used to provide an 'ignition on'. This was wrong information yesterday in term of F15 having anything to do with the PCM Power Supply.
  • Fuses F12 and F13 are powered by R11 Relay
  • R11 Relay - Live Out is Pin 5 not Pin 2, Pin 2 is ground. (Pins are 1,2,3,5)

Process explained as :

Ignition on

PCM Self Tests

Sends Ground out from M8 to Pin 2 Relay

R11 Energises

Fuse 12 (PCM) and Fuse 13 (02 Sensors) powered up

Green/Yellow Wire (Ignition On) to Pin F8 at PCM.

PCM Wires.

Grounds -Black/Yellow x 4 F40,F7,M5,M42

Ignition Feed - Green/Yellow x 1 F21

Constant 12v Feed - Orange Yellow F9

R11

Pins 1 and 3 - battery Voltage

Pin 2 - Ground

Pin 5 - Live Out to ECU

Fuses

F12 - PCM

F13 - 02 Sensors

F16 - Powers up 1st part of Relay (Pins 1 & 3)

 

............

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

Ignition Feed - Green/Yellow x 1 F21

Constant 12v Feed - Orange Yellow F9

Looks like its back to the ECU connector, to locate these two power feeds.

Then if M8 is grounded, it should turn R11 on and ECU pin F8 should go live.

I guess it is not easy decoding the connector pin numbering scheme without a drawing. .....

But I have just made a discovery. The Focus wiring diagram for the 1.4/1.6 Sigma has the identical pin numbering for all the points you have mentioned, I bet it has the same type of connector, and a very similar ECU. The wire colours are not the same, but the functions are the same.

Re: getting bored: No, it is at times very frustrating but an interesting problem to try to solve.

The Full ECU connector faceview is a bit unclear, as the lines extend across the writing for some reason (like this on the original), so I have done it in two higher res. halves also. See if it looks anything like yours.

ECU-DRG is the wiring diagram page for the ECU, it shows the 4 earths and the 3 power connections the Ford Tech mentioned, also the M8 relay coil ground. I expect many other connections will be the same, but there will be detail differences. And ignore the colour codes, they are different for the Focus.

ecu-con.PNG

ecu-con1.PNG

ecu-con2.PNG

ECU-DRG.pdf

ECU-DRG.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Looks like its back to the ECU connector, to locate these two power feeds.

Then if M8 is grounded, it should turn R11 on and ECU pin F8 should go live.

I guess it is not easy decoding the connector pin numbering scheme without a drawing. .....

But I have just made a discovery. The Focus wiring diagram for the 1.4/1.6 Sigma has the identical pin numbering for all the points you have mentioned, I bet it has the same type of connector, and a very similar ECU. The wire colours are not the same, but the functions are the same. I will add a faceview & diagram here in a few minutes.

Re: getting bored: No, it is at times very frustrating but an interesting problem to try to solve.

I suppose it would be a good idea at this point to reconnect those two wires back to the connector by way of solder.

I will do a continuity test between the pin and higher up the wire to ensure the solder is successful.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

it would be a good idea at this point to reconnect those two wires back to the connector by way of solder.

It has got to be done sometime. But not that urgent, there are still some tests that can best be done before installing an ECU. Like checking the earths, and finding the 3 main power feeds and relay coil ground lines.

Also check for any unusual 12v on wires. I am a bit concerned about the blue 12v you did find, and check that it is valid, and not some nasty short circuit in the wiring somewhere. Dodgy wiring & parts have been known to blow up ECUs, though not usually totally dead like this one is behaving. With this circuit info, we can make a good guess as to whether a connection should have 12v on it.

When rejoining a wire like that, I would poke a bit of tinned component lead (thin solid wire) down into the end of the broken wire, solder it in, then push the other end of the lead, with just a little bit of insulation stripped back, over the tinned lead, and solder that.. Then there is a positive connection between both halves. If this is done carefully, sealed up (eg with neutral cure silicone) and the wires given suitable strain relief, eg by ty-rapping to adjacent wires), then it should last the remaining life of the car.

It might be an idea to try the technique on another old bit of wire first.

The wiring diagram is a big A3 page, the PDF is a bit poor resolution, so I have done it as a .PNG (image) as well.

The full wiring set is 132 pages like that!

Edited by Tdci-Peter
Add note

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tdci-Peter said:

It has got to be done sometime. But not that urgent, there are still some tests that can best be done before installing an ECU. Like checking the earths, and finding the 3 main power feeds and relay coil ground lines.

When rejoining a wire like that, it would poke a bit of tinned component lead (thin solid wire) down into the end of the broken wire, solder it in, then push the other end of the lead, with just a little bit of insulation stripped back, over the tinned lead, and solder that.. Then there is a positive connection between both halves. If this is done carefully, sealed up (eg with neutral cure silicone) and the wires given suitable strain relief, eg by ty-rapping to adjacent wires), then it should last the remaining life of the car.

It might be an idea to try the technique on another old bit of wire first.

The wiring diagram is a big A3 page, the PDF is a bit poor resolution, so I have done it as a .PNG (image) as well.

The full wiring set is 132 pages like that!

Great thanks Peter.

Home now and will be off line for few hours. Will report around 9pm 👍👍👍

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ruiz123 said:

Great thanks Peter.

Home now and will be off line for few hours. Will report around 9pm 👍👍👍

F21 - ign feed - 0v, batt voltage with ign on

F9 - constant 12v -12v with ign on or off

F8 - 0.05v ign on, 0.01v ign off.

Seems f8 not playing ball

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

F21 - ign feed - 0v, batt voltage with ign on

F9 - constant 12v -12v with ign on or off

F8 - 0.05v ign on, 0.01v ign off.

Seems f8 not playing ball

All 4 grounds (as per Ford Tech) = 0.03ohms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ruiz123 said:

**Update**

Seems some incorrect information was supplied to me yesterday by Ford (was not the usual chap I speak to, however it was today)

In summary

  • Fuel Pump (Fuse 15) is not used to provide an 'ignition on'. This was wrong information yesterday in term of F15 having anything to do with the PCM Power Supply.
  • Fuses F12 and F13 are powered by R11 Relay
  • R11 Relay - Live Out is Pin 5 not Pin 2, Pin 2 is ground. (Pins are 1,2,3,5)

Process explained as :

Ignition on

PCM Self Tests

Sends Ground out from M8 to Pin 2 Relay

R11 Energises

Fuse 12 (PCM) and Fuse 13 (02 Sensors) powered up

Green/Yellow Wire (Ignition On) to Pin F8 at PCM.

PCM Wires.

Grounds -Black/Yellow x 4 F40,F7,M5,M42

Ignition Feed - Green/Yellow x 1 F21

Constant 12v Feed - Orange Yellow F9

R11

Pins 1 and 3 - battery Voltage

Pin 2 - Ground

Pin 5 - Live Out to ECU

Fuses

F12 - PCM

F13 - 02 Sensors

F16 - Powers up 1st part of Relay (Pins 1 & 3)

 

............

 

 

 

Omg the car started!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Plug ecu on to check something and I heard a weird sound from ECU, then started 😂😂😂😂😂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Plug ecu on to check something and I heard a weird sound from ECU, then started

I had that a couple of years ago, a weekend of struggle & trying, then the relief when it finally came back to life made me quite shaky and peculiar for a while!

When you have recovered, let us know what you did, and what you think happened.

New ECU or old?, Or maybe it was a bad connection at the ECU.

(The F8 connection will only go live with R11 in and energised, and it either needs the ECU in to energise it, or a jumper wire.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now