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Ruiz123

Flash Code 16 - No crank.

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11 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Plug ecu on to check something and I heard a weird sound from ECU, then started 😂😂😂😂😂

But I haven't done anything!!!! I don't get it, 12v constant was pierced and green so block connected it, surely that wouldnt be it?

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Just now, Tdci-Peter said:

I had that a couple of years ago, a weekend of struggle & trying, then the relief when it finally came back to life made me quite shaky and peculiar for a while!

When you have recovered, let us know what you did, and what you think happened.

New ECU or old?, Or maybe it was a bad connection at the ECU.

(The F8 connection will only go live with R11 in and energised, and it either needs the ECU in to energise it, or a jumper wire.)

 

Everything is old kit. If it was from moving, checking etc the connector head then fine. I actually plugged the ecu in whilst ign on by mistake, then the ecu whirled into life with a sound.

Went to start car and heard fuel pump prime then boom!

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8 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

If it was from moving, checking etc the connector head then fine. I actually plugged the ecu in whilst ign on by mistake, then the ecu whirled into life with a sound.

12v constant was pierced and green so block connected it, surely that wouldnt be it?

Ooops, just goes to show ECUs are actually quite tough beasts, designed to withstand abuse!laugh.png

It certainly sounds like it was one of the wires or connections on the ECU connector, or just possibly on the ECU pcb near the connector. Time will tell if the cure is permanent, but if it does come back, you know where to start looking.

It could have been the 12v constant supply.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Ooops, just goes to show ECUs are actually quite tough beasts, designed to withstand abuse!laugh.png

It certainly sounds like it was one of the wires or connections on the ECU connector, or just possibly on the ECU pcb near the connector. Time will tell if the cure is permanent, but if it does come back, you know where to start looking.

It could have been the 12v constant supply.

 

ECU still needs to be put back together, battery holder etc etc. Time will tell.

I will get the thread updated and I cannot thank you enough you really have been an absolute Superstar Peter.

Don't be a stranger 😁😁😁

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I imagine part of the design spec for any electronic module on a car (certainly modern) would that any input/output will survive a direct short to power/ground with no permanent damage. 

I am not going to test my theory on this however :laugh:

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I imagine part of the design spec for any electronic module on a car (certainly modern) would that any input/output will survive a direct short to power/ground with no permanent damage. 
I am not going to test my theory on this however laugh.png

not quite the case when i fried my ex wifes car ecu. lol but that was on purpose. boy did it stink in the car.

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5 hours ago, Micro said:

I imagine part of the design spec for any electronic module on a car (certainly modern) would that any input/output will survive a direct short to power/ground with no permanent damage. 

I am not going to test my theory on this however :laugh:

Confused... is that relative to my problems?

Thanks

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11 hours ago, Ruiz123 said:

is that relative to my problems?

I think Ted (Micro) was making a general observation about ECUs and other car electronics, not directly related to your ECU problem. It follows on from my comment about ECUs being quite tough beasts.

Car electronics is often regarded as weak and vulnerable, and all the precautions you hear so often repeated, reinforce that.

As an electronics engineer, I know that automotive components and sub-systems are required to meet some pretty tough specifications, regarding over-voltage, reverse voltage, spikes, temperature, and general abuse. So it should all be very reliable, almost bomb proof ---- In theory!

But as an electronics engineer and a realist, I know that many things can go wrong: There are fault scenarios that can exceed or get around the specifications. There will be stuff made that claims to meet the specifications, but due to cost cutting and non-existent quality control, does not. So the precautions like turning off the power before disconnecting or connecting stuff are wise, but not always essential!

Ted is also an electronics engineer, if I recall correctly, and was saying a similar thing in other words.

Is your ECU still behaving properly?

 

 

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Yes. Started it first time this morning. Having a break tonight (just sat down from 6am!).

Next step will be to do what you said and push thin wire into severed wire, then solder, then solder to the ecu connector where there is literally 2mm of copper showing!

Then cable tie all the wires together at point where they enter the ecu connector, then connector lid, then put back into original position (on side of battery holder.)

battery back in and check/tidy any loose or mess.

😁

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On 16/01/2018 at 5:52 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

 

When rejoining a wire like that, I would poke a bit of tinned component lead (thin solid wire) down into the end of the broken wire, solder it in, then push the other end of the lead, with just a little bit of insulation stripped back, over the tinned lead, and solder that

Peter, sorry but could you simplify this for me as I'm having a blond moment.

At present I have 1 wire "A" (it's 2 really but 1 for this example!

"B" is the pin at ECU connector with minimal (really minimal) copper exposed.

Are you saying to push the solid wire into B, solder, then take A and solder it to the solid wire poking up from B?

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44 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Are you saying to push the solid wire into B, solder, then take A and solder it to the solid wire poking up from B?

Without seeing the situation, it is hard to be certain as to what is best.

But in most cases I would poke the solid joining wire into the ECU connector end (B) first, and solder that in. Ideally some solder will be drawn into the joint by capillary action.

Then push the wire A (with 2-3mm of insulation stripped back) over the sticking out end of the joining wire, and solder that, trying to create a joint that remelts the first joint, fusing it all into one.

If the copper of the wires looks corroded or dirty, clean with very fine sandpaper, or a fine file first. It can take a bit of time and effort to tin old wires. If needed, do it in stages, allowing the ECU connector to cool down between each stage.

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1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

solder it

Hmm, just tried it on a workbench in good light, it is a bit harder than I hoped!

I had to push quite hard with pointnose pliers to get the joining wire in. Soldering it in went ok, though it might be easier to push the joining wire in while soldering, as the plastic insulation melts to allow the joining piece in.

Then it was harder to push the joiner into the 2nd wire, I just stripped enough insulation to kind of wrap the loom wire round the joiner. Then when I soldered it 1st time, the joiner fell out altogether! But I tried it again (same wires), and got a tolerable joint in the end.

In the end, whatever works, works! Idealy you want a bit more than just a rough butt joint of wire end to wire end. Any sort of overlap or additional wire support is a benefit.

Pics are in reverse order. They always seem to do that on this site!

WIRE-J4.JPG

WIRE-J3.JPG

WIRE-J2.JPG

WIRE-J1.JPG

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Wow Peter!

Thank you for taking the time to try this!

Much clearer thank you.

I did wonder if this is not successful could I drill out the bad in the connector head, re socket the long wire and then pass straight through the connector head ( through hole made by drill bit) on to the pin on the board, effectively bypassing the connector head completely.

 

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11 hours ago, Ruiz123 said:

tinned component lead

Hi,

Is this lead as in 'length of', or lead as in the heavy metal?

Not sure where I could get this? Maplins?

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

lead as in 'length of',

Yes, just a bit of wire that can easily be soldered. My desk and floor is usually littered with them, cut off from components as they are used. But that may not be much use to you!

Copper wire, like a strand of some ordinary wire, would do, but is very soft, and will not push in, it will bend. Maybe a pin (sewing type of pin) could make a hole to push the wire into.

The aim of this stage is to try to make a way to hold the two pieces of broken wire together while being soldered, and to re-inforce the joint a bit after soldering.

The alternative is just to tin both ends of the broken wire with normal flux cored solder, then to push them together while applying a bit more solder to the joint with the iron. In fact that is almost what I ended up doing in the photos above. The insulation will melt back, and hopefully allow a bit of overlap or interlocking of the wires. Messy, but can be quite effective.

Your idea of going straight through the connector may work if this fails, or maybe even just go around the side of the connector. I don't know how thick the loom wires are, they may be a bit big to neatly solder to the pcb without shorts to adjacent pins. Extending them with short pieces of thinner wire might work. I hope the broken wires are not the ignition coil wires, these have high voltage on them, and need extra insulation or clearance. They are ECU pins M1 & M3. But most of the wires are just signals, or low power sensor supplies, so thickness & insulation are not critical.

If handling the ECU pcb, take some static electricity precautions: Earth the iron, earth yourself by touching the car body and earth before handling the ECU. and touch the ECU by its case or an earth or ground connection before handling any other pins. When I was working on my IC, I got out of the car once while holding the IC one one hand, went to shut the door with the other, and got a massive static shock :ohmy:. It hurt me, but the IC survived, as it was not in the direct path of the shock. But if I had sent that static shock through the IC, it would probably have killed it!

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Peter, what about pushing a sewing pin in, cutting few mm proud, then soldering cable to the pin?

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13 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Peter, what about pushing a sewing pin in, cutting few mm proud, then soldering cable to the pin?

Tested a small piece (not car) had 0.01ohms continuity so seems to Work?

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5 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

pushing a sewing pin in, cutting few mm proud, then soldering cable to the pin?

Unless the pin happens to be tin or nickel plated, it will not tin. Solder will not stick to chrome, or to most steels. Nor to zinc or aluminium, normally.

Try it, just by attempting to get the solder to wet & stick to some, you might be lucky!

(Special fluxes are available to stick solder to steel, but are rather corrosive and nasty, and not so widely available.)

 

I wrote the above before your answer above, it looks like the pin you used had the right plating! Give the wire a wiggle and tug, to make sure it has wetted and stuck to the pin. Though it does not need to be a really good joint, it is only part of the overall joint between the copper wires.

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2 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Unless the pin happens to be tin or nickel plated, it will not tin. Solder will not stick to chrome, or to most steels. Nor to zinc or aluminium, normally.

Try it, just by attempting to get the solder to wet & stick to some, you might be lucky!

(Special fluxes are available to stick solder to steel, but are rather corrosive and nasty, and not so widely available.)

 

I wrote the above before your answer above, it looks like the pin you used had the right plating! Give the wire a wiggle and tug, to make sure it has wetted and stuck to the pin. Though it does not need to be a really good joint, it is only part of the overall joint between the copper wires.

 

1516311559517415689858.jpg

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1 minute ago, Ruiz123 said:

 

1516311559517415689858.jpg

Won't budge!

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Just tried to pull apart with pliers at each end, pliers ended up slipping off and still wont pull apart!

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Just now, Ruiz123 said:

Just tried to pull apart with pliers at each end, pliers ended up slipping off and still wont pull apart!

And with continuity it should work no?

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3 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Won't budge!

I think that will certainly help to locate the wire while you solder it. Bearing in mind there will be other wires in close proximity, having the wire held in place while being soldered could be a big benefit.

Continuity to the pin will help, it also shows the solder has wetted the pin. There should also be direct (soldered) continuity between the copper wires also, once the joint is done.

The joined wires will have to be protected from bending and vibrating at the joint, by support from other wires, of which there must be a lot. And insulated & sealed with some neutral cure silicone (from any builders merchant / diy shop). But that can be done a bit later.

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14 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I think that will certainly help to locate the wire while you solder it. Bearing in mind there will be other wires in close proximity, having the wire held in place while being soldered could be a big benefit.

Continuity to the pin will help, it also shows the solder has wetted the pin. There should also be direct (soldered) continuity between the copper wires also, once the joint is done.

The joined wires will have to be protected from bending and vibrating at the joint, by support from other wires, of which there must be a lot. And insulated & sealed with some neutral cure silicone (from any builders merchant / diy shop). But that can be done a bit later.

Problem there Peter is that at the ECU end, the wire is a 'clean cut' at low level, not sure i could get copper from this to meet the copper from loom wire, virtually impossible in fact. I was hoping the sewing needle would effectively extend the clean cut, enough for a solder, almost ' bridging' the gap due to lack of copper at ECU end (It looks like a snipped end of a cable after cutting with side cutters) I.e. insulation and copper same height

I could, maybe, push the pin in (centre of level clean cut) then place copper from loom wire onto pin/clean cut so there is SOME contact, then solder?

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