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Drd

Massive carbon build up in the inlet of my TDCI. Please help?!

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I have a mk2 '07 2.0 TDCI. I've had it for a six weeks or so and I rather like it. Apart from the stupid bonnet lock thing. Seriously, the ford engineer who designed that needs to be dragged into their foyer and strung up as a warning to their other engineers. >_<

I've just removed the EGR pipe, blanked the valve end with plate and gasket, and the inlet manifold with a plug and o-ring. I didn't actually know what to expect from this, but as I don't have a DPF in my exhaust and the kit only cost me £17, and it was easily reversible, I thought I'd give it a go. Interestingly, as I didn't know what to expect, it does seem a bit smoother and crisper, less of the pogo effect off from a standing start, but will drive it a bit more before I make up my mind.

But, while I was in there I had a look at the inlet manifold where the EGR pipe would connect and there was a thick black... gunky buildup (greasy carbon?). So I took off the throttle body so I could get more access to the inlet (plenum?) and there was a LOT of gunk just in the bits I could reach with rags and a finger. We're not talk a single dirty rag bad, this was a few mm thick everywhere I could reach, including the throttle body. I went through half an old bath towel worth of rags smothered in this black nastiness, and again that was just the couple of inches I could reach. So I did what every hungry idiot does in the rain and cold (*take a guess, answer will be at the bottom of the post), and removed the inlet manifold to see what was underneath, and it looked like this - 

20170424_160730.jpg

20170424_162007.jpg

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The head ports buildup is obviously more baked on and hardened, unlike the inlet which is more greasy, but that is a lot of carbon there. Is this something to be worried about, and if so, what do I need to do about it? Any help seriously appreciated.

While I was last underneath it, I did notice a small (I think) oil leak at the back of the engine, but didn't have time to properly investigate.

 

 

* If you guessed 'Not eating' you were right! ;) 

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Nasty build up I know this is an understatement but it needs taking off and  cleaning out completely  bet its like that right back to the inlet valves in the head when you look.These enclosed  breather systems I always thought them to be no good. Blanking off the EGR may help as you have now done

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Nice, welcome to EGR valves, specifically designed to make someone who will never have to worry about the consequences of such a device or pay for the issues it will cause, feel all nice inside and dream about how wonderful it is they can save the planet.

you want to be careful with that crap though, if you let the flakes fall in to the cylinder you might case some problems with the piston rings/ Barings etc

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46 minutes ago, Gizza11 said:

Nasty build up I know this is an understatement but it needs taking off and  cleaning out completely  bet its like that right back to the inlet valves in the head when you look.These enclosed  breather systems I always thought them to be no good. Blanking off the EGR may help as you have now done

I couldn't understand why on earth they even use exhaust gases in the inlet, they are exhausted and useless gases, the only possible use they should have is to spin up the turbo, they have no right replacing a perfectly good air fuel mix! Oh well, always wanted to try and do an engine rebuild. Is this just a case of removing the head, cleaning and gently polishing it, or a complete engine removal? Once the head is (very carefully) off, will a pressure washer do to get rid of most of it and finish it by hand?

 

48 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

Nice, welcome to EGR valves, specifically designed to make someone who will never have to worry about the consequences of such a device or pay for the issues it will cause, feel all nice inside and dream about how wonderful it is they can save the planet.

you want to be careful with that crap though, if you let the flakes fall in to the cylinder you might case some problems with the piston rings/ Barings etc

Lol! I'm starting to wonder whether stringing up only one Ford engineer will be enough! :angry:

Was trying to be very careful once I got the inlet (manifold/plenum) off and realised what I was dealing with, but definitely need to get this sorted asap. EGR is currently just blanked, I do have engine warning light (as expected), but would it matter if I removed the EGR completely as it's just dead weight? Or would it totally mess up the ECU? 

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There is no real need to remove the cilinder head to remove the carbon deposits from the cilinder head bores and valves. Specialist companies can remove the carbon deposits quite easily by walnut Shell blasting. This is generally a lot cheaper than removing the cilinder head.

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Thanks Wilco, it's been one of days (I've rewritten this 4 times already) and I'm confused, how do they do it and make sure they get all the media out? Any idea what the process is called?

I've never owned a turbo diesel before, and still learning, but can't get my head around the valve train and head setup on this and google images isn't being helpful. Why two intake orifices with one having an orange o-ring per cylinder on the head? :wallbash:

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16 hours ago, Drd said:

I couldn't understand why on earth they even use exhaust gases in the inlet, they are exhausted and useless gases

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation

http://www.cambustion.com/products/egr

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There are better ways of achieving a similar result, such as water (meth) injection. rather than filling your inlet manifold with carbon deposits to cool it, cooling the cylinder temps with water instead is more effective and a lot less costy in the long run.

I suspect the problem with that is the people driving them, if folk canny change oil on time they sure are not likely to fill up a water bottle regularly.

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1 hour ago, mjt said:

Interesting reading. It makes sense that at the beginning of it's life lower operating temps would be important for the long term durability of the engine. But my car's done 113'000 miles and the levels of carbon build up are ridiculous and are killing my engine faster than high temps! 

 

1 hour ago, Dee_82 said:

There are better ways of achieving a similar result, such as water (meth) injection. rather than filling your inlet manifold with carbon deposits to cool it, cooling the cylinder temps with water instead is more effective and a lot less costy in the long run.

I suspect the problem with that is the people driving them, if folk canny change oil on time they sure are not likely to fill up a water bottle regularly.

Interesting option actually, something to think about in the future. Drill a hole in the the EGR plug in the intake manifold and thread it for a nozzle, the rest should be easy. 

 

For now though I need to sort out decarbonising my head some how. I would prefer to do this myself if possible and if I'm not likely to screw it up badly. Which is why I thought removing the head to clean it would be safer than trying with it still there. 

There seems to be loads of companies out there offering the best thing since sliced bread for decarbonising engines, but most of it seems to focus on the cylinders, pistons, valves, and DPFs using chemical treatments combined with engine heat, but that's not going to touch the intake manifold, and only limited success with the intake side of the head which is the real issue. I can't find anyone offering walnut Shell media blasting for engines though. I've heard of a treatment from a company called Terraclean that's been mentioned, who I've emailed, so waiting to hear back from.

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1 hour ago, Drd said:

Interesting reading. It makes sense that at the beginning of it's life lower operating temps would be important for the long term durability of the engine. But my car's done 113'000 miles and the levels of carbon build up are ridiculous and are killing my engine faster than high temps! 

 

Interesting option actually, something to think about in the future. Drill a hole in the the EGR plug in the intake manifold and thread it for a nozzle, the rest should be easy. 

 

For now though I need to sort out decarbonising my head some how. I would prefer to do this myself if possible and if I'm not likely to screw it up badly. Which is why I thought removing the head to clean it would be safer than trying with it still there. 

There seems to be loads of companies out there offering the best thing since sliced bread for decarbonising engines, but most of it seems to focus on the cylinders, pistons, valves, and DPFs using chemical treatments combined with engine heat, but that's not going to touch the intake manifold, and only limited success with the intake side of the head which is the real issue. I can't find anyone offering walnut Shell media blasting for engines though. I've heard of a treatment from a company called Terraclean that's been mentioned, who I've emailed, so waiting to hear back from.

+1 for Terraclean. Does an amazing job.

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1 minute ago, DJ_Andy_M said:

+1 for Terraclean. Does an amazing job.

Thanks Andy, have contacted them and it's only £110 from a workshop near me. Thinking of giving them a go first, see what it's like after, and go from there.

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does terraclean actually clean the inlet manifold side or does it not just tap in to the fuel lines, making a nice clean job of the injectors and cylinders but leaving everything the other side of the inlet valves a mess?

I was reading some stuff on sea foam cleaning, that stuff gets sucked up through the air intake, apparently it does a good job of cleaning but I'm not sure its something I would try

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Just now, Dee_82 said:

does terraclean actually clean the inlet manifold side or does it not just tap in to the fuel lines, making a nice clean job of the injectors and cylinders but leaving everything the other side of the inlet valves a mess?

I was reading some stuff on sea foam cleaning, that stuff gets sucked up through the air intake, apparently it does a good job of cleaning but I'm not sure its something I would try

Depends on who you use, and what service you ask for.

The guy near me cleans out inlets, dpf and all sorts of other bits using his system.

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6 minutes ago, DJ_Andy_M said:

Depends on who you use, and what service you ask for.

The guy near me cleans out inlets, dpf and all sorts of other bits using his system.

interesting, Ewain, worth checking that out before booking, be a real shame to get it cleaned only to fined they didn't clean the inlet side.

I shoved a scope down my inlet manifold and it was pretty bad, ive had it blanked for 3 years but it had 50k on the clock before I got ahold of it. I need to get the clutch and DMF changed first but I think a terraclean would probably be worth while, especially since the 1.6 TDCI is a complete pain in the backside to get the manifold off the top.

 

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43 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

does terraclean actually clean the inlet manifold side or does it not just tap in to the fuel lines, making a nice clean job of the injectors and cylinders but leaving everything the other side of the inlet valves a mess?

I was reading some stuff on sea foam cleaning, that stuff gets sucked up through the air intake, apparently it does a good job of cleaning but I'm not sure its something I would try

 

42 minutes ago, DJ_Andy_M said:

Depends on who you use, and what service you ask for.

The guy near me cleans out inlets, dpf and all sorts of other bits using his system.

 

31 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

interesting, Ewain, worth checking that out before booking, be a real shame to get it cleaned only to fined they didn't clean the inlet side.

I shoved a scope down my inlet manifold and it was pretty bad, ive had it blanked for 3 years but it had 50k on the clock before I got ahold of it. I need to get the clutch and DMF changed first but I think a terraclean would probably be worth while, especially since the 1.6 TDCI is a complete pain in the backside to get the manifold off the top.

 

 

I was looking at that Sea Foam stuff too Darren, will see where the Terraclean goes first, but I might give it a go.

I just got off the phone from local Terraclean dealer, and they said there is an adapter for intakes, but they don't have it, so I've emailed Terraclean for any other dealers in my area that do have it. If they do all the injectors, valves, pistons, cylinders, exhaust ports, and intake for £110, it'll be well worth the money. Might even refit the EGR pipe and get that all cleaned out while I'm there, as can remove it again later, but at least I'll know it's cleaned.

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Just booked the car in with another dealer for wednesday next week, full treatment including intake. Will post the results, as it's interesting to see before and after pics, and driving impressions.

But still welcome comments and discussion on the issue and their own experiences with carbon-buildup/decarbonising.

Also anyone with knowledge or experience with water/methanol intake injection to lower temps, as I think it's something that's not used so much, but it's a simple system that is used to great effect with some high performance modded cars. It might be something I'll experiment with, especially as it's so easily removable. 

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its something that's on my list of things to add, it is fairly expensive to buy and install if you want to do it right but you can take it off and install in your new car so its an investment. Not only does it reduce temps which improves NOx emissions but it will also help with MPG and give a little more punch, itll also help keep things nice an clean.

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4 minutes ago, Dee_82 said:

its something that's on my list of things to add, it is fairly expensive to buy and install if you want to do it right but you can take it off and install in your new car so its an investment. Not only does it reduce temps which improves NOx emissions but it will also help with MPG and give a little more punch, itll also help keep things nice an clean.

Interestingly, one of the decarbonising techniques I found on youtube was of a guy using water, by pouring it into his inlet in a very controlled manner while maintaining 2500rpm. Seemed to work for him ok, but not sure I'd want to try on anything I needed to keep working. I watched something a long time ago where some kids in japan were using squirty bottles in a proper ghetto style water injection system, but that was with petrol and I have no idea what that did to their engines!

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Right, after having had the terraclean done, I've finally got round to taking the inlet manifold off and as far as I can see the carbon build up in the head is the same as before, but this might have been some confusion as to which process I'd asked them to do, as they billed me less than I was expecting.

In the meantime, I got an inlet manifold off ebay, thoroughly cleaned and checked it and swapped it for the gummed up mess that was the original, and in doing so I found one of the inlet o-ring/gaskets had died and the exhaust crank cover rubber gasket is also looking pretty knackered, both of which could be causing boost pressure loss (don't know if it'll be noticeable). 

While I was at it, I removed the throttle body and gave it a good clean as it was pretty gummed up, and blanked off the EGR pipe so that I can reduce anymore carbon build up in my intake.

Have ordered the gasket kit for the inlet-manifold/rocker-cover, and have decided to have a go at removing the head and sorting it myself at some point in the near future, which I'll try and document as much as possible.

But first I'm going sort out the intake system, because when I removed the throttle body I noticed the intercooler pipe was a mess too, so next will be removing and cleaning the intercooler and pipework, possibly the turbo if it needs it too (I really hope not).

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Wow, I wish I knew enough about engines to handle all this. I just about managed to take off and clean the egr from my old mk3 mondeo (just as caked as your head by the looks) but I think I'd be terrified of (really?! Censoring "scre-wing"?!) up my car to do more.

Strange really, cos I've always been comfortable taking stuff apart to see how it works and getting it back together again OK...

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On 27/04/2017 at 6:33 PM, JW1982 said:

There is no real need to remove the cilinder head to remove the carbon deposits from the cilinder head bores and valves. Specialist companies can remove the carbon deposits quite easily by walnut Shell blasting. This is generally a lot cheaper than removing the cilinder head.

Any more in this process please?

If anyone knows anything about this method, please get in touch, as it could save me a ton of work.

 

On 28/04/2017 at 1:46 PM, DJ_Andy_M said:

Depends on who you use, and what service you ask for.

The guy near me cleans out inlets, dpf and all sorts of other bits using his system.

Yep they could do it, but an unfortunate lack of communication (on both sides) means I don't think they did the head process, and as my car didn't come with a DPF there wasn't a really noticeable difference there either, but it could have done a great job on the engine internals that I can't see.

 

15 hours ago, Phil21185 said:

Wow, I wish I knew enough about engines to handle all this. I just about managed to take off and clean the egr from my old mk3 mondeo (just as caked as your head by the looks) but I think I'd be terrified of (really?! Censoring "scre-wing"?!) up my car to do more.

Strange really, cos I've always been comfortable taking stuff apart to see how it works and getting it back together again OK...

I know what you mean Phil, it is quite an intimidating prospect, and I've never tried it before, but I've always wanted to have a go at rebuilding an engine. Still pretty damn scary though. 

I've no idea how much it would cost to get it done like this professionally, but don't imagine it'd be cheap.

While I've got it off, I might have a go at porting the head (very carefully) a bit too, as that's also something I've wanted to try, but that's even scarier!

 

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1 hour ago, Drd said:
1 hour ago, Drd said:

While I've got it off, I might have a go at porting the head (very carefully) a bit too, as that's also something I've wanted to try, but that's even scarier!

 

Only do this if you know exactly what you are doing as often the water jacket is close to the surface .You can't just remove material with out at least some sort of template for your type of head. Just polishing the ports on their own does very little looks nice  about it really.  You will have to strip the head right down ie valves out etc I have done many ford Pinto 2ltr head in my time  to rally spec. different head  I know but the principal is the same Be careful don't just use a dremmel and hope for the best.When is off matching the inlet  manifold openings to the head and making sure the gasket is exactly fitting the aperture would be a good thing

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Yeah that sort of porting is way out of my comfort zone. :blush:

When I say 'porting', what I'm planning is just to port match the head and inlet manifold.

I'm mainly doing this so I can get the head stripped and all the heavy carbon build up removed, both to prolong it's life and to (maybe) improve performance a lil bit, but I'm under no illusion that I'll be getting massive power as a result. 

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9 hours ago, Drd said:

Yeah that sort of porting is way out of my comfort zone. :blush:

When I say 'porting', what I'm planning is just to port match the head and inlet manifold.

I'm mainly doing this so I can get the head stripped and all the heavy carbon build up removed, both to prolong it's life and to (maybe) improve performance a lil bit, but I'm under no illusion that I'll be getting massive power as a result. 

Yes this is a good thing matching the inlet to the head As they often don't match very well .Also match any gaskets to the ports so they don't over lap. I usually make an exact paper template of the inlet (inlet side) place this on the engine  ports that way you can see  what needs to be removed ( probably very little).then when done pace the Gasket on the engine and remove any that stick out. If you have rubber gasket rings then you can't  realy do that bit. I won't say it makes any  major difference but at least its well matched then.Let us know if you manage to do this

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The gaskets are unfortunately rubber, but the material I need to remove is on the head, and the seals slot into the the inlet manifold about 4-5mm from the edge of the inlet port, so the seals won't be affected. 

So, I'm hoping to carefully just get rid of the step-down effect from the manifold into the head, tapering the inlet to the head just a little bit.

Haven't seen the exhaust side of the head yet, but will be checking it out as I have an oil leak I need to investigate that I suspect is the turbo.  :w00t:

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