30 replies to this topic

[jst008]

Hi Stooge75, I don't think you've grasped where this thread has gone.  No one is saying supermarket fuel is rubbish, it has to meet a certain specification.  But sub zero temperatures in the south in mid march may have caught a few garages out who had already switched to summer fuel.

 

For the record tankers have more than one compartment & can therefore carry more than one product.  If you see a tanker delivering to Asda, Texaco & BP then they can not be selling much to only want a part load ???????

 

As you would expect this topic in general is on many other forums, especially at this time of year when many people drive off to the Alps on a skiing break having filled up in the uk beforehand with summer diesel only to encounter problems the other side when the temperature drops to -5 degC & beyond.  Be warned.

[ScotsFocus]

Personally, I use BP gets used here..... ever since I had an 1992 Escort 1.4i LX it had a diet of Esso or Supermarket fuel.  It had problems of power losses, or would rev it head of at junctions.  My main Ford dealer turned round and said it was the way the car was driven.  After one of these fits on a busy motorway, I managed off.  After half an hour, I got it going again.  Later on the way home it went from 6/8ths to 2/8ths fuel in the space of 25 miles.  So pulled into a BP garage filled it up, it gave a little cough on exit but it hadly used a gallon of fuel for the rest of the 55 miles home.  After that I used BP, my father is a qualified motor engineer.  On speaking with him, he had found out that it was throttle position sensor that had got clogged up with the other fuels.  BP's fuel cleared the muck!

 

In the family we have 3 Focus diesels, they all get a diet of BP Ultimate diesel, the auld yin's  Mk1 Estate  1.8TDDi seems to have gotten sweeter and quicker since it passed the 110k mark with average 56.4mpg.  So I certainly don't think its a lot of rubbish about which brand of fuel you use.  my MK 2.5  2.0TDCi gives about 51.1 average and the sister's 12plate 1.6TDCi gives 69.7 average.... with no problems.... anybody having problems use BP fuel and use nothing but!

[baitman]

is the BP ultimate diesel actually 'better in the tanker' or is it just the same as supermarket fuel on delivery to the BP garage, and only then do they sprinkle the magic dust in to the fuel storage tanks?

[FOCA]

is the BP ultimate diesel actually 'better in the tanker' or is it just the same as supermarket fuel on delivery to the BP garage, and only then do they sprinkle the magic dust in to the fuel storage tanks?

Yes, it has a higher cetane value, (from the refinery) it may contain detergents that help to clean injectors etc BUT the advantage is debaetable, the detergents may have damaging long term effects on rubber seals (its supposed to be safe) etc and the engine may not be set up to take advantage of the better cetane value

 

The extra cost may outwiegh any improvement in MPG (in tests, the cheapest available fuel had the best MPG per £, )

 

(because the "premium" fuel cost more, this outwieghed the improvement in MPG,(in an indipendant test on a motoring programme)

 

 Bottled cetane boosters to add to your tank are very expensive too, so are injector cleaners, the high cost of these may outweigh the saving/ improvement in MPG/ or take a long time to break even   

 

In another independant test (on petrol) the supermarket fuel had the best performance and MPG (with ordinary cars), the "super duper" high octane petrol made tha cars slightly slower with slightly less MPG, only on a high performane (260+HP) turbocharged car did they see any improvement with the high octane petrol,     

[baitman]

many thanks for that explanation.

[ScotsFocus]

I can only go on my own findings, my annual mileage sits around an average of 15k per year now, the '10 Focus 2.0TDCi MK2.5 is coming up on 32.5k.  But I find it performs better, and takes less fuel to brim the tank when using BP Ultimate Diesel.  It's predecessor got a diet of BP Ultimate Petrol, '01 Focus 2.0i 16v Ghia it left my hands at 113k nothing other repairs other than normal service items.  The one before that a '95 Escort 1.8i 16v Ghia departed at 92k the same no other than normal service items mix of normal BP & BP Ultimate Petrol.  The predecessor before that was one of the earliest  1.8i Zetec engines a '92 Escort 1.8i 16v LX left my hands at 341k guess what a diet of  normal BP petrol.  That must be one of my most reliable cars ever, never used oil.  Service accordingly to intervals and belt changes & a water pump its predecessor was the dreaded '92 Escort 1.4i CFi LX mentioned earlier that gave a heap of bother when run on Esso & supermarket petrol.  I suspect from the horrors that friends who have a BMW 330d, another one with a VW Golf GT170 have had been using lesser branded diesel fuel or supermarket diesel fuel have been having.  The BMW has had to get a new fuel pump and injectors, BMW blame the fuel used. So they have had a hefty garage bill running well into the thousands. As has VW with problems with the injector problems on the Golf.  I reckon what they have had to fork out in repairs I rather pay a few pence more for quality fuel.... you may wish to gamble with the cheaper brands or supermarket fuels... I don't!

[stooge75]

ITS ALL THE SAME FUEL FOLKS......THE DELIVERY GUY COMES OUT OF TEXACO AT BOTTOM OF RD,DROPS NEXT LOAD AT ASDA OR GOES TO BP UP TOP OF RD. THERES SOOO MANY FOLK THAT GO ON ABOUT BP,ESSO ETC. LOADA BUMF. DEALERS DONT KNOW SQUAT

[ScotsFocus]

Stooge 75 there is no need to use capital letters in any situation in any forum.  It is deemed to be shouting my friend.  SO DON'T at me!

 

As for it coming from the same place yes it does that is correct, in mine and your case I would would reckon that to be Grangemouth.  Put it another way it's like full fat and skimmed milk!!! And are you a time served motor mechanic, my father is.  Granted he has been retired for the past 15 years.  So I reckon he'd know a thing or two about engines and the fuel problems they can have. 

 

BP takes the top bit of the storage tank at Grangemouth, and the other brands get the next bit leaving the dregs for the supermarkets.  So would you like the dregs from the beer keg to drink?  Neither do I, so I reckon my car shouldn't get fuel dregs either!  I guess it down to personal choice.

 

Stooge 75 if you think like many others that supermarket and lower brands fuel is fine for you - you use it! I am only voicing my opinion on the subject and possible solution to what seem to be a considerable problem.for the original poster!.. My sister has had two 1.6TDCi Focus's with the engine in question at the start of the is thread one being a '58 plate and the other one a '12 plate.  She's a district nursing sister in the lake district, so her car gets used in cold conditions but like her father, and brother she uses BP Ultimate fuel... she hasn't had the problems described at the begining of the this tread. 

 

ps. I remember Autocar doing a duel with the powershift version of my car Ford Focus 2.0TDCi Titanium taking it from Calais to Berlin along with a Lamborghini.  The Lamborghini arrived only ten minutes ahead of the diesel Focus.... They found the diesel fuel found in Germany to be superior to here, as the Focus managed do another 10mph more than on the stuff found elsewhere! Together with added fuel range as well. 

[stooge75]

Sorry about the caps,didnt even notice. As for the fuel debate,im not gonna argue

[ScotsFocus]

stooge75, apologies accepted about the caps! The fuel debate could rattle on I'm sure, if the stuff you use works for you thats what really matters.... You must like your Mondeo, you won't be here if you didn't - I do like my Ford's, and I like people who like Ford's too!

[jst008]

Hi Guys, thought I would try & bring this back to the original thread.

 

I'm not trying to say one brand is better than others it's about why the fuel waxes in the filter on the 1.6tdci Econetic at low temperatures (albeit not very cold).

 

I've looked at virtually every other thread & on one there is a guy with exactly the same problem with the same car.  He has taken it further than me & has posted pictures of the fuel from the filter which has waxed & fuel from the tank etc etc. 

 

I've learn't a lot recently about the cloud points of fuel, CFPP's, when the switch over to summer fuel is - BP say it's the 15th March, but can not say if the date is flexible due to local weather conditions.  Also the lower the micron number is on a filter the lower the CFPP figure is, anybody know how fine the Econetic fuel filter is?  And it's not only Fords - but maybe it's the Ford/PSA engine that is also in Peugots & Citroens AND Range Rover Evoques as on their thread there is someone who also had a blocked filter in the cold due to waxing of fuel & has been told it's a common problem.  His RAC man even carries more fuel filters in his van when the weather is cold.

 

There is something specific such as a design flaw or just a collection of a few events that when combined cause this problem.  Is it the route the fuel pipe takes from the tank to the filter, is it subjected to ....something?? Is it the increased levels of biodiesel in the fuel (which don't like the winter & don't react the same way to the winter additives), by increased levels of biodiesel I mean more than the minimum required by law.  Is it the Econetic engine & it's supersensitive design (finer fuel filter, increased injector pressure).  Is it condensation in a half fill tank (but this would happen to all models - but the Econetic filter is finer!).

 

We need a Ford CSI team to sort this out as it is way above the supermarket versus big brand fuel debate.

 

By the way if you are interested the link to that other forum is: http://www.talkford....s-cold-weather/  only look once though & then back to this one.

[ScotsFocus]

Jst008, I hope you get this problem solved soon.  Have you complained to directly to Ford about it.... Personally I'd give them the feedback you've got via the Facebook page under Ford UK.  All customer care departments need a good old nudge from a post on Facebook!

 

It would be interesting how Volvo deal with this problem, given the climate in Sweden.  I think they use this engine in the C30, C70, S40, V40, V50, (Focus platform) S60, S60, V70 (Mondeo platform)... know as the D3... I wonder what the spec is for the filters on them!

[FOCA]

J

 

It would be interesting how Volvo deal with this problem, given the climate in Sweden.  I think they use this engine in the C30, C70, S40, V40, V50, (Focus platform) S60, S60, V70 (Mondeo platform)... know as the D3... I wonder what the spec is for the filters on them!

Artic countries have different diesel with a lower freezing (solidifiing or waxing) point

So exactly the same cars/ engines with the same filters may not have the same problem/s because the artic diesel stays liquid at a lower temprature  

 

Germany has 3 specs - Summer (0 degree C) Spring/ autum (-10 degrees C) Winter (-20 degrees C)

 

UK appears to have only 2 (summer and winter)

 

Remember winter diesel has a lower calorific value than summer diesel

 

UK pump diesel needs to contain at least 5% bio-diesel some has 7% - it has to comply to minimum freezing/ waxing/ solidifing points though

 

Since 2006/7 we have been supplied with ULSD - ultra low sulphor diesel - the sulphor was an exellent lubricant, this was replaced with the bio-diesel (5-7%) the diesel we get now is very different from the diesel in or before 2005

 

Diesel supplied in the UK has minimum specs (one for summer/ one for winter) "supermarket" diesel has the same min. spec as as the big oil companies supply in their filling stations

[FOCA]

Hi Guys, thought I would try & bring this back to the original thread.

 

By the way if you are interested the link to that other forum is: http://www.talkford....s-cold-weather/  only look once though & then back to this one.

 

Stick a link on Talkford to FOC, i bet they would remove it or reprimand you (they are not as enlightened as us, unfortunately)  

[bladeage]

OK!

.....Lets get down to the great debate of red diesel and its properties, how and why you should not use it in modern vehicles ??

 

Please before that discussion starts then do a proper search on the internet regarding sulphur content for grades of diesel and deposits etc.

 

I thought I might just add this into the mix ....just in case anyone out there thinks they can use red diesel in there new cars (2001-ish onwards).

 

How many of you know/think that red diesel is just normal diesel with a red dye added so tax/customs can catch you out?

 

That was (20 yrs ago/still is!) how they used to catch fuel cheats out, they dont need to now as we all have alloy cylinder heads, shimmed valve seats,DPF's and so on.

 

.....so it continues!    lol....summat to talk about !