As title says. Was driving along, then all of a sudden, engine cut out. As if someone pulled the plug out! No abnormal noises, and running perfectly up to that point.. Tried to restart, and within a couple of seconds of the engine turning over, the battery was flat also.. called the AA out  who put their booster battery on, but just turns over and dosent start..

Seems strange that the battery has all of a sudden died also - thinking this maybe a symptom of another fault.. I've tried jump starting with a spare good battery, but the same problem persists...

My elm327 code reader with Torque on my phone comes up with no faults. Fuel pressure looks OK while cranking. The way it died, I'm thinking its more likely a sensor / fuse / relay, rather than a mechanical issue. 

Currently in Devon, and being relayed with our caravan back to Wiltshire tomorrow.... oh what fun...

 

Car is a 2008 Mk4 Mondeo, 2.0 TDCI. 205000 miles.

 

Any ideas anyone??

1 hour ago, Cannon106 said:

Seems strange that the battery has all of a sudden died also - thinking this maybe a symptom of another fault.

My guess is that alternator failure caused the system voltage to drop until the engine just cut out, but then this also caused a software related glitch in the ECU which is preventing it from firing up again.

The basis for this is that it explains the apparent coincidence of flat battery with the cut-out. I have had a cut out while driving due to a failed alternator leading to flat battery, and it was quite similar. The only warning was the radio went a bit odd, then power just went and it cruised to a halt. But that was an older Sierra, a very much simpler (electronically) car. Also it would stack up with lack of error codes. A failed sensor or fuse would usually create some error code.

I'm glad you have said this, as its exactly the same train of thought I was going through! Unfortunately, I've got no tools with me.. but once home, I planned to remove the alternator +ve cable (in case its shorting, or pulling the voltage down), then remove the +ve cable from the battery and leave it for 5 mins, to reset the ecu. Then reconnect battery and try again..

I have forscan on my laptop somewhere, with a modified USB / Diag lead. Will this give any further diagnostics that a standard scanner won't? Its been a while since I last used it!

Hi Chris had almost the same fault on my daughters Kuga on Christmas Day !

Alternator failed and went short circuit causing a massive current draw on the battery (how nothing caught fire is a miracle).

Please disconnet your battery +ve BEFORE your disconnect the +ve from the alternator (and insulate the lead). Your battery will not only be flat but probably damaged internally due to the short circuit current though the alternator.

After I replaced both the alternator and battery on the Kuga, it had about 30 DTC's logged, I used Forscan to clear the codes and everything was fine.

18 hours ago, Cannon106 said:

have forscan on my laptop somewhere, with a modified USB / Diag lead. Will this give any further diagnostics that a standard scanner won't?

It is quite likely to give more codes, and maybe more information on what the codes mean. It is Ford specific, rather than having to deal with the foibles of all manufacturers. It can also run self test facilities on some of the modules, including ECU (PCM), and can do module reset operations that might even clear the lock-up that the ECU may have got itself into..

Ok great, thanks for the info Peter! Just home now, but they gave me a courtesy car (freelander 2) to tow my caravan home with, with the Mondeo being delivered back to me sometime next week!

 

Will have to wait until then to do some tinkering...! But it does give me a change to install forscan on my new laptop and dig the lead out of the garage!!

OK, ForScan Log below...:

(WARN) [17:19:56.784] Checking COM4...
(OK) [17:19:57.155] Connection to adapter has been established: COM4
(OK) [17:19:57.155] Adapter:  ELM327 v1.5
(OK) [17:19:57.353] Connection to vehicle has been established
(OK) [17:19:57.913] Vehicle: Ford Mondeo Duratorq Turbo Diesel Common Rail Injection 2.0L 2008 ( 2007.25 MY ), VIN: WF0*********71490
(OK) [17:19:59.317] Found module:  PCM - Powertrain Control Module
(WARN) [17:20:13.567] DTCs in PCM: P115A:00-68, P0406:00-24
(OK) [17:20:13.722] Found module:  OBDII - On Board Diagnostic II
(WARN) [17:20:14.015] DTCs in OBDII: P0406-P
(OK) [17:20:14.915] Found module:  SASM - Steering Angle Sensor Module
(OK) [17:20:17.662] Found module:  ABS - Antilock braking system
(WARN) [17:20:19.098] DTCs in ABS: B1B69:16-08, U3001:00-08
(OK) [17:20:23.326] Found module:  BCMii - Body Control Module
(WARN) [17:20:26.069] DTCs in BCMii: B109B:13-68
(OK) [17:20:39.253] Found module:  SRM - Speech Recognition Module
(WARN) [17:20:40.015] DTCs in SRM: U2101:00-2F
(OK) [17:20:41.897] Found module:  PDM - Passengers Door Control Unit
(WARN) [17:20:42.658] DTCs in PDM: B1165:15-26
(OK) [17:20:43.867] Found module:  DDM - Drivers Door Module
(WARN) [17:20:44.762] DTCs in DDM: B1166:15-28, U0300:4A-2E
(OK) [17:20:46.172] Found module:  RCM - Restraint Control Module
(WARN) [17:20:47.363] DTCs in RCM: U3006:16-08
(OK) [17:20:49.154] Found module:  HVAC - Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning
(WARN) [17:20:50.018] DTCs in HVAC: U3006:16-28
(OK) [17:20:53.321] Found module:  ACM - Audio Control Module
(WARN) [17:20:54.189] DTCs in ACM: U0238:00-28
(OK) [17:20:59.563] Found module:  IPC - Instrument Panel Control Module
(WARN) [17:21:01.011] DTCs in IPC: U3006:16-2B, U0422:68-2A, U0415:68-2A, U0416:68-2A

Most of these are due to the low voltage of the battery.. apart from the EGR valve one, but the EML is NOT illuminated on any of these DTC's

I cant see any reason why any of these would cause the car to cut out, and now not start? Fuel level is between 1/4 and empty.

On another note, Car came delivered back today, checked voltage on the battery, and it was down to 2.5V!!! Put a spare battery on it, and tried to crank, and it turns over a few times, then screen on dash goes blank, as if battery is flat. Tried with another battery, and same again. (Both batteries were known good ones). Its almost as is it tries to turn over, nearly starts, then gets a bit stuck, so starter draws too much current, causing low voltage...

Disconnected the alternator, with same results. Also tried clearing the DTC's with Forscan, but just kept coming up with errors and would not clear.

Only other thing I notices, was a small unit to the right of the EGR valve was whining (May even be part of the EGR valve). Disconnect plug and its stops.

I'm thinking about stripping the cam cover off at the weekend, and checking the timing chain hasnt skipped a tooth - not sure if this would cause these issues?

Any help / advise / questions / similar issues etc welcomed!

Hi Chris, well if the timing chain has broke then it would be a big reason for the engine not starting but, that wouldn't account for the battery being flat or for the replacment batteriies also going flat.

With the battery main positive lead disconnected check the resistance between the lead and the vehicle ground, as it sounds like you have a short circuit or a very low resistance fault.

 

15 hours ago, Cannon106 said:

Car came delivered back today, checked voltage on the battery, and it was down to 2.5V!!! Put a spare battery on it, and tried to crank, and it turns over a few times, then screen on dash goes blank, as if battery is flat. Tried with another battery, and same again. (Both batteries were known good ones). Its almost as is it tries to turn over, nearly starts, then gets a bit stuck, so starter draws too much current, causing low voltage...

One possibility is a broken wire or bad connection in one of the main power or earth connections to the battery. A clue for this is if the starting attempt really did pull a lot of charge out of the good batteries, or just looked as if it did. The terminal voltage on the actual battery, before, during and after a starting attempt will show this: Very heavy current will make it drop a lot, with a slow recovery (several minutes) to a rather lower terminal voltage than before. Also if you have a charger with current or charge state indication, then how long it takes to re-charge the battery after an attempt is a good measure.

Certain types of failure, like a shorted winding, in a starter motor can result in it drawing very high current with limited torque at the drive gear. Valve or piston damage from a badly slipped or broken timing belt could partially jam the engine. According to 7Zap, 2008 2L Diesel Mondeo has a belt:

https://ford.7zap.com/en/car/39/no/26/1562/15604/68118/

It is hard to come up with a fault scenario that matches all symptoms. Sudden total power loss & Flat battery being the main ones. But a sudden break in a main earth or supply cable might do it, also a major engine problem like timing belt/chain breakage, coupled with a flat battery from starting attempts with engine damage is another one, but hopefully it is not that second one!

The main supply and earth lines both usually split at or near the battery, one branch to the engine (alternator, starter & main engine earth point), the other branch to the body (Engine bay fusebox & earth points near that box). Sudden total failure of either earth, or the supply to the fusebox, could fit the symptoms. Supply to alternator & starter seems to be working, and partial failure is not likely to cause the total power loss.

Will have a better look at the weekend, but with the good batteries connected, they went down to around 9v when cranking, then recovered to around 12.5v within 30 seconds.

Main +ve lead to fuse box is OK, as is the lead to starter / alternator. Earth lead also looks OK. As a test, I also ran a spare jump lead cable from the negative battery terminal, to an exposed metal part on the engine, but same fault. Thinking about it now, it does seem to turn the engine slower than usual, which is making me think more that it could be timing.. the battery is many years old, so the extra load exhibited if the timing is out may have been the straw that broke the camels back!!

The spare batteries I have used did not go flat after attempting to start, as the original did.. just get the symptom of a flat while engine turning over, which again may point to high loading while cranking..?

Thanks again for all your help so far... I'm determined to not give up on this car, as its been one of the best cars I've owned!!

3 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

According to 7Zap, 2008 2L Diesel Mondeo has a belt:

It does indeed - but the belt drives the exhaust camshaft only, the inlet camshaft is driven by the exhaust camshaft by a chain. 😉

3 hours ago, Cannon106 said:

the battery is many years old, so the extra load exhibited if the timing is out may have been the straw that broke the camels back!!

The batteries in these Diesels are quite hefty, and have plenty of excess power for normal starting. So an older battery could well start the engine easily if it fires up in the 1st couple of revs, even when very cold in Winter. My Bosch 5 year battery is now 4 years out of warranty (!), and still fires up the engine easily enough. But try to crank for a bit longer, and a worn out battery will quickly fade away. So it does all stack up quite well. I just hope the engine is ok, there is not much space between valve & piston in a high compression Diesel.

Well, I didn't get as far as I wanted today, due to Rain, the  fact that I'm uber tired as have been waking up at 4.30 to cover my engineer at work, and accidentally dropping some air intake screws down the intake ports! 😱 (all recovered with a magnetic pick up tool! Thankfully!!)

But... the timing chain, and tensioner look intact and working. Timing belt looks in good condition. I'm pretty confident the timing is OK, but I'll drop the bottom splash sheild off tomorrow, and turn the engine over by hand to double check timing is all correct.

Also, does anyone know what this unit is for? Is it part of the EGR valve? It was whining when battery connected and ignition on, unplugged and its silent?

6 hours ago, Cannon106 said:

Is it part of the EGR valve?

It looks very much like the top & connector of the electronic EGR unit to me. The photo is from Ebay of what seems like the right thing for the 2008 2L. I would be surprised if a stuck EGR was totally preventing starting. They often whine, it is the PWM waveform used to control them that you can hear.

Turning the engine over by hand (or big spanner!, or just by turning a roadwheel in 5th if manual gearbox) sounds like a good idea, you will get some inkling of if there is any compression, and near TDC or BDC you could feel if there is extreme stiffness. If it turns over by hand ok, but is still slow cranking on the starter, I would look at testing or replacing the starter motor next. Forscan can be used to log fuel pressure & rpm while cranking, I have done that, but if it obviously is not getting up to proper speed (200rpm seems to be the norm for firing up), there is no point in trying that.

Well, bit of progress... 

Looks as if the timing is out... looks like the following:

Exhaust camshaft chain sprocket, has slipped on the camshaft.

Both camshafts appear timed correctly to each other, but the camshaft belt sprocket is not in its timing position.. however  the exhaust camshaft is keyed to the camshaft belt sprocket. So only option is that the chain sprocket has slipped on the shaft. It can happen - have a look on YouTube for Alan Howatt's video on snapped cam chain on a mk5

The cams also look in a similar position to each other on both shafts...

So, I guess fix is as follows:

1, Remove cam cover. 2, check rockers, and replace as necessary. 3, Replace exhaust cam. 4, Re-time.

Hopefully that sorts it and it hasn't damaged anything else...

Pictures show both cams 'apparently' in correct position, with gold teeth denoting the timing positions (11oclock for exhaust, 12 o'clock for intake), however the cambelt sprocket is about 100 degrees out (bolt denotes where the locking hole is)

Update 2...

Canshaft belt pully key has sheared off... (and the pully was in the incorrect position looking from looking after where it should have been on the shaft.) that will be the issue I guess...

Worth taking all the cam cover off and checking? Don't really want to take apart more than I need to.. and just replace the pulley? 

What the consensus??

Hi Chris, thats not something that happens every day !!

The trouble is now that is equal to the cam belt having snapped and we all know the amount of damage a snapped cam belt can cause.

It would take a masive amount of force to snap the key which would make me ask how could that happen. Can you turn the camshafts freely by hand ?

I don't know the clearance between an open valve and the top of a piston on your engine, but I would be amazed if there hasn't been contact made.

1 hour ago, unofix said:

The trouble is now that is equal to the cam belt having snapped and we all know the amount of damage a snapped cam belt can cause.

Thanks! Thats what I needed to hear.. I was trying to convince myself that I didn't need to take the cam cover off, but deep down, I knew they needed to!

So, update 3...!

Had to weld some nuts onto the injector studs to get them out... but the rocker cover is finally off.... and here's the damage...

1 x broken exhaust camshaft.

8 x broken rocker arms (only on the inlet side..)

The exhaust camshaft sprocket has also spun on the shaft, as its not in the orientation it should be...

Only issue is, I haven't recovered the end of the camshaft thats broken off. Its broken right above an oil return gully, so im hoping its sunk down tk the sump. Sump will be coming off this weekend... along with some nice shiny new bits to fit in!

Oh what fun!!

Hi Chris thats a lot of investigation and a lot of damaged broken stuff !!

I would stop now and cut your losses, the engine has gone to that big scrap yard in the sky 😟

The top of a least one piston is going to be smashed and possibly the conrod. You would be better spending your time and money trying to find a secondhand engine from a scrap yard or even buy an MOT failure Mondeo for a few hundred and take the engine out of that.

2 hours ago, Cannon106 said:

1 x broken exhaust camshaft.

8 x broken rocker arms (only on the inlet side..)

The exhaust camshaft sprocket has also spun on the shaft, as its not in the orientation it should be..

I am afraid I am with Unofix here. There is a very high chance of damage to the bottom half of the engine: crankshaft, main bearings, conrods, The aluminium pistons will all be mashed after hitting those steel valves. The forces are massive. It would not be worth repairing the top end, only to find the crankshaft is bent or cracked, even very slightly. A used engine from a scrap car that has had a rear end bump or failed on body corrosion would be a better bet.

If you fancy the challenge of rebuilding an engine, a second hand one would provide a lot of parts, only needing to buy a very few critical wearing parts. Buying parts quickly adds up to a lot of money.

Well, after a good sleep, a lot of contemplating, and a visit to 3 or 4 trusted garages for their advise (as well as the advise from this forum), I decided to not repair it... I just don't know what damage / stress I have done to the rest of the engine, some of which may be unable to see by eye. Its done 205,000 miles, and I tow a large twin axle caravan regularly, so I need a strong motor... sad days 😞 However, I have managed to find a nice replacement, an 09 Titanium, which is perfect, as I can swap all the towbar and electrics straight onto it.... It also seems much more responsive  and at the moment, has a much improved mpg...? Maybe my old one has been dying for some time!!

Anyway, If anyone wants any items from a Panther Black 58 reg Titanium, let me know... its going to be broken down for parts....!