Turvey Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Just moved into our new build house(hence not being on much recently) and have a question about outside light/PIR. Basically we have a pair of 'Up and Down' lights either side of the front door which, according to the builder, had to be wired through a PIR to pass 'Regs' quoting Security and energy saving. He also said that we could remove it once we moved in though ;) What I would like to do, and I don't know why we didnt do it when the house was being built, is to remove the PIR and install a small PIR controlled spotlight in it's place. What I would like to happen is to allow the 'Up and Down' lights be left on as long as the switch is on and for the spotlight to come on as and when it gets triggered if that makes sense Reading this through I think I've answered my own question..........it's gonna be more complicated than just replacing the PIR with a spotlight so I think I'll have to get a professional in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Lol! Is the pir a stand alone unit then and not fitted in the lights? I think i would have another cicuit added so the small pir light will have its own isolator switch in the house and the up/down lights will be on a separate switch giving you total control. Should be easy enough to do but will involve some floor boards lifting upstairs which are most likely chipboard sheets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarksST Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Does the light also work from a switch inside the house? Most will have. Inside the PIR you will have a permanent live and a neutral ( and if your lights and PIR are currently seperate) a switched live going to the lights. A spotlight with PIR could be fitted instead connecting just the permanent live and neutral. Switched live would be terminated on its own. If you do have a switch indoors this should now just turn on the current light fittings. Probably best to get a electrician to have look, even just for advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoney871 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Does the PIR control not have sensitivity and time adjusters? I have one which you can set to permanently on at night. Sometimes you also find that if you have an internal switch you can do the 'on-off-on' flick on the switch to go between always on and sensor activation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turvey Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 What a knowledgeable bunch you are! :) @WES180...I did wonder about that but it's would be quite a lot of faffing about to achieve it. It's only a bungalow but there's 3 layers of insulation over the joists and knowing me I fall through the ceiling! @MarksST...Sorry, should have made it clear. Yes, they are switched from inside the house. I've just taken the cover of the PIR and there are 4 wires going into it. Earth, neutral, live and one marked like a snowflake. I'm guessing from what you say that this one will be the switch wire? So if I disconnected(safely) that wire the lights would just work on the switch? @Stoney ...No settings. I have heard about the On-Off-On method for over-riding the PIR but apparently it reverts back to PIR after you switch it off again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarksST Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Yes, if you disconnect it, the PIR will not turn the lights on. The switch should then be the only thing that turns the lights on as long as it currently turns them on now. The on-off-on thing was for older PIRs, when the only had a switched live going to them from the switch inside the house, you would leave that on all the time for the PIR to work, then flick the switch on and off to make it latch on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Get yourself a voltage tester, bargain one here - http://m.screwfix.com/details.htm?id=88495&csnbl=1 With this you can identify the permanent live and switched live simply by touching it against the cable sheath. I would consult an electrician if you are not confident though and even of you are it would be better to seek their advice before starting anything rather than our DIY skills.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarksST Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Get yourself a voltage tester, bargain one here - http://m.screwfix.com/details.htm?id=88495&csnbl=1 With this you can identify the permanent live and switched live simply by touching it against the cable sheath. I dont think there is a way to do what you want without ending up with a PIR light that cant be isolated if any problems develop. You would have to isolate the whole lighting circuit once its hard wired rather than flicking a switch. If youre not bothered about that and you have got a live and switched live in the current PIR then you would need a new light with enough space inside it to make new connections. Permanent live - new PIR light Neutral - new PIR light + split to existing lights. Earth - New PIR light + split to existing lights. Switched live - Existing lights. That would give you switched control for the up/down lights and the new PIR light would be hard wired to the light circuit with no isolation other than the lights circuit breaker. He has got a permanent live going to the PIR already, so would need to switch off the MCB for the lights anyway (best to do that anyway) the switched live he has at the PIR will be from the PIR to the light fittings. If he can disconnect the switched live from the PIR, the switch inside the house should still operate the current light fittings. If the that is the case then he will be able to swap the standalone PIR for a flood/spot light with built in PIR. Obviously without seeing the installation it's hard to tell but, from the info given its sounds like all the wiring is in the correct place to do the above easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I agree Mark, if it was in front of us it would be a 5 minute job!:) Its hard to say as ive no idea how the spark has wired it as in if he has used the PIR as a typical ceiling rose? In that case there would be 2/3 wires in the permanent live 1&2 permanent loop/ring or 1 if last light on the circuit or a spur and then remaining live wire goes to the light switch which returns as your switched live. Or, there could be a junction box in the loft before the PIR. I give up lol as i dont want to give bad advice when i cant see how its been configured. Final words - Get an electrician to do it and supply you with a certificate that all is done properly and tested.:) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turvey Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 Who knew electricity was so confusing! :) I'm beginning to edge towards the 'Leave it alone until something breaks' camp but for your information and entertainment here's a couple of pics to show you how it's wired. It'll be obvious to you all I'm sure but the outside lights are wired into the right hand side switch ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarksST Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 The right hand switch, does it have 2 wires in the common and 2 in the L1? Or is L2 used aswell? On the PIR if you disconnect the black wire with brown ID from the terminal marked with the star, put it in a terminal block on its own, then try the light switch to see if it turns the lights on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turvey Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 L1 only has 1 wire but COMM has 3. Nothing in L2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Get a spark in!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 The right hand switch, does it have 2 wires in the common and 2 in the L1? Or is L2 used aswell? On the PIR if you disconnect the black wire with brown ID from the terminal marked with the star, put it in a terminal block on its own, then try the light switch to see if it turns the lights on. I would have thought you need to link the black with brown sleeve wire and the brown wire together to make the switch work the lights without the PIR as at the minute the PIR is acting as another switch in the circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarksST Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I was looking using my phone earlier which didn't help. Looks like the permanent live to the PIR goes through the light switch, which needs to be on for the PIR to work. All the wiring is there to wire it how you want it to work, won't take long to swap the wiring around in the switch. Not sure why there is 3 live and neutrals there though, maybe easier to join there for an extra circuit/leg of circuit. The brown wire in L1 needs to be connected to the common terminal withe the other 3, this will give a permanent live to the new PIR/light fitting The 2 browns in the terminal block need to go into L1, this will switch the 2 wall lights on seperately. The black with brown ID is connected on its own in a terminal block each end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Finally cracked it then Mark.:D Now, just to complicate things, 3 gang switch option so the new PIR light can be isolated - put the brown that you removed from L1 and put in with commons into L1 on your 3 gang switch. Put a new brown connector loop wire from the common with 3 wires to the common on your 3rd switch to give you your live supply. You now have up/down lights on own switch and the new PIR light on its own switch too. The black wire with brown sleeve remains taped up at both ends. I still recommend getting a spark in though if youre not confident in doing the job.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarksST Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yes a third switch is an option but, it could be confusing as it is only turning the PIR off, so you someone would be flicking the switch and seemingly nothing happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yes a third switch is an option but, it could be confusing as it is only turning the PIR off, so you someone would be flicking the switch and seemingly nothing happens. I just like to be able to isolate things!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarksST Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 That's fine, its still turned off by the MCB which would remove the supply to switches and light fittings, and stops people flicking the switch while your on the other end of the wire. Proper isolators so can be locked off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 That's fine, its still turned off by the MCB which would remove the supply to switches and light fittings, and stops people flicking the switch while your on the other end of the wire. Proper isolators so can be locked off. Whats wrong with a bit of tape over the switch?:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turvey Posted June 5, 2015 Author Share Posted June 5, 2015 I much preferred Mark's first suggestion of just disconnecting the 'switch wire'. Even I would have managed to do that safely :) Anyway, spoke to the sparky doing the house next door, same company but different guy, and showed him the pics and he reckons it won't be a major job to sort if we get a light we like ;) Cheers for all the info even though 90% of it went right over my head. Shows what a good forum this is B) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WES180 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Fine, waste our time finding a solution and then you go and get a professional to do it properly and safely anyway, sod you then!:D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turvey Posted June 5, 2015 Author Share Posted June 5, 2015 I know, how selfish of me!!! :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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