13 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

It also shouldn't be opening every few seconds as it appears to be on your live diags, unless I'm reading the PID wrong?

Looking through the graph I can see that the EGR is opening almost regularly every 38 second intervals, then closing after a second or two. I presume resetting the EGR parameters on FORScan is using the 'reset EGR valve adaptations' function? Would this be the same function to be used if installing a new EGR valve?

Yeah that's the one, same for a new one (or cleaning the old one) as well.

Thanks for that Tom, I appreciate it! I'll update this with the results as soon as I have them.

6 hours ago, bigshorty said:

EGR is opening almost regularly every 38 second intervals, then closing after a second or two.

In my last post, I assumed the Forscan graphs were with the EGR Un-blanked. It possibly makes a bit more sense (but not much!) if the pulsing graph was with the EGR blanked. It seems to have been opening it (and the EGR throttle at the same time), finding it made no difference, and shutting both again.

One thing to test: Re-display the data in offline mode again, and try to zoom in on one pair of pulses, or one pulse, by altering the display time scale. See if it still looks the same (but spread out), or if additional information appears.

Eeek!

I have just noticed that P0487, P0488 & P2141 relate to the EGR throttle valve, Not the EGR valve.

DTC P0487: Exhaust Gas Recirculation Throttle Control Circuit "A" /Open

DTC P0488: Exhaust Gas Recirculation Throttle Control Circuit "A" Range/Performance

You did include the word throttle in your post, but I did not register it, I don't think I knew it had a throttle valve & an EGR then.

So it is the throttle (or anti-shudder) valve that is the suspect one.

And I have seen one other person reporting a 30sec interval for something to happen when the EGR is blanked:

(Don't know what pipe he was talking about, just the 30 sec interval is interesting.)

I think I would:

Replace blanking plate to see if original (no DTC) state was restored. (you said you were doing that anyway).

Remove throttle valve & give it a good going over.

 

 

Cheers for that info Peter

The throttle valve is the anti shudder valve, is this correct? Do you know roughly where the location of this valve is? I have a Haynes manual that shows a close up picture of the anti shudder valve, but from that picture I can't quite locate where it is in the engine bay.

I'll give it a good clean out and try the car out again and let you know the results. If all goes well I'll probably replace the blanking plate after.

2 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

One thing to test: Re-display the data in offline mode again, and try to zoom in on one pair of pulses, or one pulse, by altering the display time scale. See if it still looks the same (but spread out), or if additional information appears.

I have checked the FORScan data again and the peaks for both the EGRVP and EGR_TV look almost identical when they happen at the same time, the EGRVP seems to go up first, followed by the EGR_TV immediately after. The peaks stay up for roughly the same time, then drop at pretty much the same time (see picture). I've checked the whole graph and have noticed that now and again, in between the regular peaks for both, the EGRVP will show up some odd peaks, but this didn't happen much over the 60 minutes of data I collected.

33 minutes ago, bigshorty said:

I can't quite locate where it is in the engine bay.

It is to the left of the oil filler cap,in front of the concertina hose, where the big hose from the intercooler comes up.

That Forscan data looks very convincing to me, those pulses line up well. Really looks like they are both pulsing at about 35 second intervals.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 20169 yr by Tdci-Peter
Add note

Thanks Peter, I know where it is now.

So from what you are saying it looks as if the throttle valve is more likely to be the fault than the EGR valve? I guessing if one element of the exhaust gas recirculation process messes up then it will cause the other not to function properly as well? (eg: if the EGR valve was playing up then the throttle valve would react accordingly, and visa versa).

I'll take the throttle valve out as soon as, clean it up, and see what happens, once the drizzle has stopped (typical). I'll keep this updated with any findings!

Cheers again Peter and Tom for your help, really appreciate it.

2 hours ago, bigshorty said:

I guessing if one element of the exhaust gas recirculation process messes up then it will cause the other not to function properly as well?

 

That sounds dead right to me. And those DTCs clearly said Throttle (all 3). There are separate DTCs (eg P0489, P0490) for the EGR valve itself. Each valve has internal position monitoring and drive circuits, so the PCM can identify most electrical problems down to the valve.

Overall problems with the EGR system (insufficient or too much flow) could confuse it, but these 3 DTCs look pretty electrical to me.

Peter.

 

Eureka moment chaps!!

Please have a look at a small FORScan live data scan that I did during a 2 minute idle after messing about with the throttle valve. It looks much more pleasing to me, hopefully you think the same.

As for what I did, well I took the throttle valve assembly off, expecting it to be caked in crud, and it was actually very clean inside. I started to think that I was never going to get to the end of this problem. However I saw two butterfly valves in the assembly so I had a play with them, the small one moved nice and freely, but the larger one felt like it was sticking in the closed position. I noticed one edge, close to where the rod that the butterfly valve is attached to, and that I presume goes into a motor, was wedging itself against the housing of the assembly. I got a screwdriver and hammer and lightly tapped the butterfly valve away from the housing, and the valve moved freely again, and sprung back to the open position without sticking.

Put everything back together, cleared the DTCs P0487, P0488 and P2141, and the started the car with FORScan running. As soon as I started the car and let it idle it sounded and seemed different. On looking at the dashboard on FORScan, I could see that the idle rpm has increased very slightly, before it would have idled at just below 800rpm, now it was idling at just over 800rpm, the DP_DPF PID during idle was reading 1.2kPa before I looked at the throttle valve, yet now is reading 0.2kPa at idle and revving to 3000rpm the DP was 4.1kPa. To me these readings were much more pleasing, however what pleased me more was the reading for the EGRVP and EGR_TV PIDs, which looks to me like its showing both of these are now working as they should. Obviously, I need to take the car for a longer run, which I will be doing tomorrow, and I will collect some more live data when I go for this run, so will let you know what happens, but all looks good so far.

Finally, on another plus note, after I turned the car off, I checked for the 3 DTCs mentioned above again, that would have shown up again after turning car off before, and there were no DTCs showing up. Again early days, but this is some great progress so far, well pleased. Obviously, I'll need to keep an eye for the DTCs in the future as I'm not sure how good my fix for the throttle valve will be, and that might need changing in the future, but at least it looks like the cause of problems have been found.

I'll keep you posted with the results I get tomorrow, finger crossed! Thanks for all the help and advice you've given me guys, I really do appreciate it.

1 hour ago, bigshorty said:

However I saw two butterfly valves in the assembly

Great news!

The DV6 (1.6TDCI) EGR system is quite complex! It is not just the EGR valve, but there is this throttle valve, that seems to be used to ensure the inlet pressure is below the exhaust pressure, to get the right re-circulation flow. There is also an intercooler by-pass valve, that keeps the inlet air temperature up when needed.(*)

One of the butterfly valves you saw may be this by-pass valve, does it lead to the big hose that curves around the air filter, linking the intercooler to the turbo?

The graph data does look more reasonable now, though I have not tried to analyse it in any detail! I presume the results were with the EGR operational (not blanked?).

If possible, these engines should not have the valve blanked, the other two valves can cause slight loss of power or DPF regen problems, unless a really competent PCM re-map is done.

Looking promising so far. Hope it stays that way for a while, but at least you now have a good idea what to look at if does re-occur. Butterfly valves can be prone to wear, either in the spindle, or at the seating edges, which can make them stick.

Peter.

(*): It is a bit of a myth that cooler air into the engine is always better. For absolute max power, that is true, but when cruising (so that is most of the time!), warmer air may promote better combustion: more efficient (less fuel) and cleaner. I have fitted an intercooler blind (thermostatically controlled) to my 1.8TDCI, and it does seem to have decreased fuel consumption, albeit by a rather small amount. (1-2 mpg). But I am still investigating this.

 

 

Hi Peter

2 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

One of the butterfly valves you saw may be this by-pass valve, does it lead to the big hose that curves around the air filter, linking the intercooler to the turbo?

From what I could gather, yes it was.

2 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

The graph data does look more reasonable now, though I have not tried to analyse it in any detail! I presume the results were with the EGR operational (not blanked?).

The results I took were with the EGR not blanked.

Interesting comment at the end regarding the myth that cooler air to the engine being better for it. I'm not really interested in having max power, I'm more of a easy driver, so if all seems ok on the next few runs I will probably leave the blanking plate off. Thing is I'm toying with the idea of selling the car and going back to petrol. I originally bought the car for commuting to work as I had to travel quite a few miles a day for work, but I lost my job and am unable to work now due to ill health, so the car hardly gets used. Trouble is its a good car to drive and has never let me down, so is leaving me in two minds as to what I should do for the best. One thing I have learnt, these 1.6 TDCIs are rather complicated and can be pretty pricey to maintain should things go wrong. What to do? Hmmm!!

1 minute ago, bigshorty said:

these 1.6 TDCIs are rather complicated and can be pretty pricey to maintain should things go wrong. What to do?

The latest Petrol cars, particularly Ecoboosts, are much more complicated still, with even more bits to go wrong.

I like the low revs, high torque of the diesel, and I like the good fuel economy.

There are quite a lot of reports about later petrol cars not living up (anywhere near) to the claimed fuel economy.

And usually, with decent maintenance, a diesel will outlive a petrol.

But in the end it is all down to personal choice.

Peter.

 

 

There's pros and cons for either really then, and its all about weighing up those to trying and make the right choice. Good info about new petrol cars though, definitely worth thinking about before making the decision. I have to say I cannot fault this car really and I do love driving it, all the problems that happened recently, can all be put down to wear and tear, which you'll get on any car. And when there are good, cheap resources like FORScan and you useful, in the know chaps on this site to use in times of need, you can save huge amounts of money.

Another update here with good news and bad.

Looking through FORScan live data for a journey done today and the EGR valve and throttle valve seem to be both working well. What readings they are supposed to show though I'm not 100% sure of, but EGRVP PID readings were variable between 0.00% and 98.44%, and the EGR_TV were variable between 1.97% and 52.87%. The graph on FORScan shows very wiggly lines, much better than the 38 second spikes I was getting before. Also, no sign of EML coming on or the DTCs P2141, P0487 and P0488. Much more pleasing results there.

However, I noticed that on the way to my destination, the car performed another regen. I checked on FORScan and DTC P2458 (DPF regeneration duration) came up again, I also checked the distance from last regen and noticed that it was only 156km since the last one. During the regen the particulate filter temp sensor went up to 597'C, and I could time the whole process as during the regen period the EGR valve was reading 0% all that time (I'm presuming the EGR valve closes during a regen), the regen process took between 9 - 10 minutes to complete. Is this about the right length of time that a regen process should take? The differential pressure went up to 11.4kPa during the regen. In general the pressure readings are a bit lower than they were before I sorted the throttle valve, but do still seem to shoot up quite a bit when accelerating, and when cruising between 50 and 60mph in 5th gear were averaging 1.5kPa to 3.0kPa. The journey itself was single carriageway A and B country roads, and I know I was stuck behind traffic doing no more than 50mph most of the time, and during the regen. Whether this could have caused the P2458 code to pop up I really don't know, but what I'm thinking is P2458 comes up if the distance between regens are significantly reduced, not regen time length, thats my thinking anyway, would you agree? If P2458 is in fact relating to distance between regens, then this may have popped up due to the fault codes relating to the throttle valve and EGR that I was getting before. Now that I've managed to get these codes under control, I will keep monitoring and collecting live data using FORScan and see if the distance between regens increases. Other than that, I'm starting to think the DPF is getting blocked up, which is obviously not what I wanted. I would be tempted to take DPF off and try to rinse it out, but I'm not sure if my mechanical abilities can stretch that far. I've also read that checking the voltage on the DPF sensor at the PCM is a worthwhile as this could be playing up, but I've no idea how I would go about doing that. Any ideas of what I should be doing now would be more than welcome, but to me it looks like a DPF change is on the cards.

As a cheap, last resort fix I've bought myself some Wynns DPF cleaner additive, as I've heard good reviews about it, however I'm doubtful whether this would remove heavy loadings of ash / soot, but I thought I'd give it a go anyway, might give me a few more miles, or so I hope!

There we go, not great news, but could be worse. Any ideas chaps?

1 hour ago, bigshorty said:

EGRVP PID readings were variable between 0.00% and 98.44%, and the EGR_TV were variable between 1.97% and 52.87%

On my 1.8, when the EGR is working properly, it does ramp about a lot. Even if the throttle pedal is held absolutely still, there is some variation. I think the control system is rather complex, estimating engine air flow & comparing it to the MAF, and the control system rarely settles to a nice steady value. When not working (blanked or a fault in the actuator), it tends to go to one extreme or the other, and stay there until speed or throttle change make it go to the other.

The DPF dps do not seem very high, if the 1.5kPa was 50mph & the 3kPa was 60.

P2458 is supposed to be duration of the regen cycle. P2459 is regen frequency or time between regens. But what actually triggers P2458 is anybodies guess. The 600C temp. should have been amply adequate.

Can you clear the P2458 code, did it put the light on & cause reduced power mode, or was it just stored as a pending DTC?

Was there any noticeable difference in DPF DP after the regen finished?

I am rather hoping that problems with the EOLYS tank (I think you said it may have been empty), and past difficulty with regens with the faulty EGR system, may have built up some soot, that will take several regens to recover. If that is the case, the duration and frequency should decrease, and the DPF DP drop a little. (Hopefully there is fluid in the tank now, I do not think the car can tell, it just works on counting fuel fills, I believe. Lack of fluid will prevent soot burn, unless the temperature goes well above 600C.)

If regen's become longer or more frequent, and the DP rises, then it is likely that the DPF is blocked. But let us hope for the former at present!

Check that the Wynns is compatible with EOLYS systems, if so it might help speed the recovery.

Peter.

 

Hi Peter, thanks for getting back to me.

5 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Can you clear the P2458 code, did it put the light on & cause reduced power mode, or was it just stored as a pending DTC?

Yes I can clear P2458, and have been able to each time it pops up. It didn't put the light on and no reduced power mode. The code wasn't stored as a pending DTC as I checked for codes before I left and there were none showing.

 

7 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Was there any noticeable difference in DPF DP after the regen finished?

I would say DPF DP was definitely lower after the regen, and yes quite noticeable. Before regen at 1800rpm I got a DP reading of 6.4kPa, yet after regen at 1800rpm had a DP reading of 1.8kPa (I picked two random points on the graph to get these readings). One thing that is more noticeable was the steadiness of the graph line after the regen. Before regen graph line was quite variable, yet after the line smoothed out a lot.

 

13 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Hopefully there is fluid in the tank now

Yes you are correct in me saying the Eolys tank was empty. This happened not that long ago, just before all these problems started, and it has been replenished and counter reset. I know this was done as it should have been as the red EML that is in the shape of a cog with an exclamation mark in, went out after resetting.

I'll check the Wynns cleaner before adding to make sure it is compatible, and thanks for clarifying the P2458 and P2459 DTCs for me. I have to say it was quite a slow, low rev run during some of the DPF regen process today, and particulate filter temperature was fluctuating between 597'C and 398'C during this time, so that may well have triggered the P2458 due to the higher temperatures not being achieved for long enough.

It sounds like only time will tell with this issue, so I'll keep using FORScan for now and update this as soon as something more noticeable happens. Thanks again for the help and advice. If you think of any other info that maybe relevant, I would be grateful to hear it.

Found this quote on a Wynns Diesel Particulate Filter Cleaner factsheet

" Some vehicle manufacturers equip their diesel engines with a built-in small tank containing an additive that is automatically added to the fuel to clean the soot filter. Pouring Wynn’s DPF Cleaner in the fuel tank causes no problems for the built-in regeneration system. On the contrary, it will reinforce the regeneration of the filter."

Link:

http://www.wynns.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/28263_72_Diesel-Particulate-Filter-Cleaner_EN.pdf

So definitely going to chuck a bottle in, see if that does anything!

On 7/6/2016 at 8:09 PM, Tdci-Peter said:

So I would only try this as a last ditch attempt to salvage a blocked DPF, where there is nothing to lose. And I would not use pressure jets, just reverse flushing with copious water.

Hey Peter

An update for you. Car is still wanting to do regens frequently (about every 60 - 70 km), the Wynns DPF cleaner doesn't seem to have done anything, so the last resort job of trying to wash out the DPF is going to be done today, before I have to fork out for a new one.

I had one question for you if you wouldn't mind giving me your advice please. When I've attempted washing the DPF out and put it back together, should I reset the DPF values on the PCM using FORScan first, or should I give the car a couple of runs first and see what happens as far as regens go? Just wondered what you would do in this situation. I've heard that the car will do regens based mainly on differential pressure readings, so in theory if the DP reading drop significantly and are quite stable, then the car shouldn't regen as frequently (thats what I think anyway).

What do you think?

Another update after cleaning DPF.

I've managed to clean the DPF until water started coming out clear. Put it all back together and gave it an idle while taking some live data from FORScan, which was a bit scary as there seems to be a rattle that has developed somewhere, albeit not a bad rattle at all. Pretty sure everything was put back together correctly, so I'm at a bit of a loss why, but everything seems fine otherwise. Also blanked the EGR valve again, as I felt since driving it without it on, the car was more hesitant on acceleration, more stuttery whilst driving and fuel economy seemed worse. So I thought I'd put it back on and see if it makes a difference.

I've put some FORScan screenshots on for someone to have a look if you wouldn't mind, but first impressions look really good and washing the DPF seems successful. Bit sketchy when I first started the car up as the Differential Pressure readings were hitting 45 kPa, but I assumed this was cause the filter was full of water, and car did sound a bit funny to begin with, so I just let the car idle for a bit to evaporate the water and as I did the DP readings gradually started to go down. Eventually the DP readings while idling went down to 0.0 kPa. I revved the car to 2500rpm and got a DP reading of 3.0 kPa, lowered to idle speed for a moment, then revved again to 2500rpm for a bit longer and got DP reading of 1.5 kPa, lowering to 0.9 kPa. At 1800rpm the DP reading was 0.0 kPa. One final rev up to 3000rpm for about 30 seconds gave a steady reading of 1.0 kPa. To me these readings are miles better than they were, but I'll take the car for a longish run tomorrow, with FORScan running and see if the regen happens.

Be grateful to know what anyone thinks about all this info. Thanks in advance.

11 hours ago, bigshorty said:

should I reset the DPF values on the PCM using FORScan first,

Sorry not to have answered before, I have been out all day. I suspect you have answered that question. I would say yes, reset after washing. They can always be reset again if there were some initial problems.

Did much dirt come out of the filter when washed?

I will look at the data a bit later, out of time now!

Cheers for the reply Peter, and no rush with getting back to me, still got to take the car for a run tomorrow, and I'll collect some more data and let you know how it goes.

I haven't reset the DPF values yet, so I'll do that before I set off, but thanks for the advice!

By the way, yes, quite a bit of dirt came out. I fill the DPF with water, gave it a shake around, emptied it and then repeated until water came out clear, then back flushed it out just to be sure, in all took me at least 30 minutes, arms and shoulders are feeling it now. There was loads of orange coloured dirt, mixed with some small black blobs.

2 hours ago, bigshorty said:

There was loads of orange coloured dirt, mixed with some small black blobs

That does sound very hopeful!

I have had a quick at the data, it looks good except I can't read the scale on the top (DP) trace. I can just see the red line is almost flat along the bottom.

I hope you realise that you have volunteered yourself to be a guinea pig!

Keep a close eye on what happens, and please keep us informed. But it sounds good so far.

I just hope the system responds with a longer interval. Various reports suggest this system has a mind of its own, and no-one has ever been able to fully fathom out the logic of the regen interval.

See

Peter.

 

7 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I can't read the scale on the top (DP) trace

The scale on the DP trace goes from 0.0 kPa to 47.0 kPa. As I said, when I started the car after cleaning the DP readings went straight up to 47.0 kPa, but as soon as they did they started to come down at the rate of 0.1 kPa roughly every 2 seconds, until it got to around 20.0 kPa then it dropped a lot quicker, probably because exhaust gasses were getting hotter and evaporating the water quicker. I also noticed white smoke from exhaust for first 5 - 10 minutes after starting, this I assume was condensation.

 

7 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I hope you realise that you have volunteered yourself to be a guinea pig!

What do you mean Peter?

I'm hoping this has some positive results, only time will tell, but I'll keep you posted with any new findings!