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Fiesta MK8 non starter - HELP?!

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Well, that was easier than expected. :biggrin: 

Engine for Ford Fiesta VII 1.1 Ti-VCT XYJB H1BG-6006-TB 85.000km - Picture 3 of 4

Engine for Ford Fiesta VII 1.1 Ti-VCT XYJB H1BG-6006-TB 85.000km - Picture 4 of 4

So it's a very simple system.  No MAF.  Airbox hard pipe just runs from airbox back to throttle body (which is mounted vertically).  Throttle body is mounted directly on the plastic manifold.  MAP sensor can be seen between the two tracts on the right of the picture.

The red hole is a vacuum pipe, probably for the brake servo.  There's a large hole underneath it, possibly for the crank breather pipe.  And there's a small vac hose to the left of the red hole, not sure what that one's for yet.

As it only uses MAP, disconnecting the airbox pipe won't make any difference to the PCM or fuelling.  However, blocking that pipe should cut the engine off.  If it didn't, that means air is still getting in at this end.  Potentially through a crack in the plastic manifold.  Though I would say it's much more likely to be a split on one of the vacuum pipes.  Especially that thick one, which I think is for the crank breather.

Interestingly, as there's no MAF, the MAP sensor figures shouldn't be affected by a split pipe.  However, it may be causing more air at one end of the manifold than the other, which could explain your lean mixture code.  Although that could equally still just be a red herring from testing.



@TomsFocus thanks for the response

 

I've just had a look at the upper pipe next to the brake servo and it appears to be fine. Although it's a thin pipe it does appear to be quite solid material so I expect it would be obvious if it has a split in it? 
 

I've also followed the lower pipe which is much larger and connects to the top of the engine. This has a foam type of sheathing so difficult to actually see if the pipe has any damage as I may need to remove the foam which looks like a messy job. 
 

Im hoping my friend has his MOT ramp free this evening so I will try to get to have a look from the bottom of the engine at the rear to see if anything is obvious.  Hopefully I can nurse it a mile or so away without too much drama and expletives from others 

I will report back. 

Whilst waiting for the MOT ramp to be free I found a couple of "self test" options in forscan and gave them a go

Here are my results:

P1116:00 - engine coolant temperature sensor is out of self test range

P1124:00 Throttle position sensor 'A' out of self test range 

Now I don't know if these are issues themselves or just tests that are not successful. The throttle position sensor is interesting. Any ideas on where that is located?

Time you called a garage. The easy checks are done and if you need help to find the TPS it tells me that you will be far better served by getting professional help.

There are two TPS's.  One in the pedal to measure pedal movement.  And one in the throttle body to measure butterfly movement.

I'm not convinced that would cause your issue though.

Thanks. I found both sensors. I don't think it's the same issue. You are correct. Vacuum lines have been checked and no leaks

I disconnected each of the coil packs. Cylinder 1 and 3 cause the car to cut out. There is no change when cylinder 2 coil is disconnected
 

I've also swapped the coil packs round and same result. 
 

I'm starting to think that cylinder 2 has a compression issue which is not the news I was hoping for 

Next step is a compression test....

1 hour ago, norman1979 said:

Whilst waiting ....

Just to confirm and for clarity. When you blocked the 'air intake' did you fully block the pipe in the photo below or did you block just the air going in to the air filter box ?

air.JPG

Did you check the spark plug on cylinder 2?  If it's dry then it could be a faulty injector rather than low compression.

Regarding your P1124 Code during the Self Test, if you touched the Accelerator Pedal during the Test then that might be why that Code was set.

For info and sorry Tom, the Throttle Plate has two tracks as a double check, the Accelerator Pedal also has two but they would give a different Code.

All these things as well  as the Coolant Temperature, Short and Long Term Fuel Trims and Misfires can be checked using FORScan to monitor the Live Data if you can keep the Engine running.

15 minutes ago, unofix said:

Just to confirm and for clarity. When you blocked the 'air intake' did you fully block the pipe in the photo below or did you block just the air going in to the air filter box ?

air.JPG

I blocked the intake pipe after removing the jubilee clip shown on the pic 

 

14 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Did you check the spark plug on cylinder 2?  If it's dry then it could be a faulty injector rather than low compression.

Good point. I didn't check that specifically today - I will check it tomorrow 

Valve, head gasket, rings, sparking plug, injector, coil. Six possible reasoons from the top of my head, none of which I can rule out completely. It might be none of them but I can't fix this by guesswork, even with experience. Time to hand it over to somebody who has the tools and ability to give you a proper diagnosis. A compression tester will be needed to rule out the first three and the rest could be evaluated with Forscan but the learning curve is steep, especially if you're not a natural at this stuff. Those of us who prattle on about cars all the time forget how much there is to know which is a gentle way of saying that you could soon find yourself led up the garden path and by the computer without knowing it. On a comparatively new car (I have a MK8, too,) I wouldn't reccommend it.

 

Ok so latest update

We have compression! Yay! All cylinders between 150-160

I removed the spark plugs again to check if they were wet and none were wet. However plugs 1 and 3 spelt strongly of petrol. Cylinder 2 only smelt slightly of fuel. 

I also took it for a drive and on light throttle it seems as though there is no issues at all. Under load or slightly heavier throttle the car holds back. 
 

What next? I've tried to look at live readings on forscan and there isn't anything obvious I can see on the injector readings. Is there anything in particular I should look at out to see if they are out?

 

Forscan still showing system too lean bank 1

I may have to agree with anon that it could be best left to someone with more diagnostic experience now. 

If you do want to try some 'parts canon' then a set of fuel injectors and rail are cheap for these as they're only indirect injection.

FORD FIESTA MK8 1.1 Ti-VCT FUEL INJECTION RAIL H1BG-9H487-AA 0280158505 | eBay

Would also suggest replacing the spark plugs if that hasn't already been done.

 

There is one more free test I've just thought of.  Run the engine and spray something semi-flammable (easystart, deoderant, etc) around the back of the engine where the vac pipes and the plastic manifold are.  If there is a vac leak on any of those, they'll suck in the flammable stuff along with air and you should hear a change in engine note if that happens.  If there's no difference at all then that backs up the theory that there isn't a leak there.  (Although how it still ran with the inlet blocked is a mystery in that case.)

4 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I may have to agree with anon that it could be best left to someone with more diagnostic experience now. 

If you do want to try some 'parts canon' then a set of fuel injectors and rail are cheap for these as they're only indirect injection.

FORD FIESTA MK8 1.1 Ti-VCT FUEL INJECTION RAIL H1BG-9H487-AA 0280158505 | eBay

Would also suggest replacing the spark plugs if that hasn't already been done.

 

There is one more free test I've just thought of.  Run the engine and spray something semi-flammable (easystart, deoderant, etc) around the back of the engine where the vac pipes and the plastic manifold are.  If there is a vac leak on any of those, they'll suck in the flammable stuff along with air and you should hear a change in engine note if that happens.  If there's no difference at all then that backs up the theory that there isn't a leak there.  (Although how it still ran with the inlet blocked is a mystery in that case.)

Thanks Tom. 
 

I've purchased injectors (not that particular one) and let's see what happens

I would love to take it to a garage but there isn't any decent mechanics close to me that's the issue. 😞

Really? in the very centre of the world motor sports industry heartland?

14 minutes ago, anon said:

Really? in the very centre of the world motor sports industry heartland?

I've just moved to the "middle of nowhere" A small village called Harlington

 

I mean Stoke Mandeville was good but I wouldn't call it the heartland of world motor sport 😄

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I may have to agree with anon that it could be best left to someone with more diagnostic experience now. 

If you do want to try some 'parts canon' then a set of fuel injectors and rail are cheap for these as they're only indirect injection.

FORD FIESTA MK8 1.1 Ti-VCT FUEL INJECTION RAIL H1BG-9H487-AA 0280158505 | eBay

Would also suggest replacing the spark plugs if that hasn't already been done.

 

There is one more free test I've just thought of.  Run the engine and spray something semi-flammable (easystart, deoderant, etc) around the back of the engine where the vac pipes and the plastic manifold are.  If there is a vac leak on any of those, they'll suck in the flammable stuff along with air and you should hear a change in engine note if that happens.  If there's no difference at all then that backs up the theory that there isn't a leak there.  (Although how it still ran with the inlet blocked is a mystery in that case.)

I tried easy start around the intake pipes and it didn't make a difference. I'm 99% sure the intake pipes are fine 

Whilst waiting for the fuel injectors I have been doing some research on live values. 
 

Looking at the following values in the graph in the correct order:

O2 Bank 1

O2 Bank 2

short term fuel 

long term fuel

rpm

 

First graph is on idle showing the short term fuel ratio fluctuating from 12-4%. The long term fuel ratio is 30% which looks very high 

 

Second graph is showing revs on idle. Long term fuel drops considerable when revs increase which does suggest an air leak. Am I reading them correctly? 
 

I'm going to try the purge valve today 

All help appreciated as it's steep learning curve but very much enjoying it. 

Revvs.png

Idle.png

Also MAP sensor is showing around 30KPA on idle and around 100KPA when revving 

1 minute ago, norman1979 said:

Also MAP sensor is showing around 30KPA on idle and around 100KPA when revving 

That one is working as expected.

100kPa is one Bar.  Exactly one atmosphere.  Which is what we would expect with the throttle plate wide open and unrestricted.  30kPa at idle could be a little high, but it's really not excessive and I don't know the perfect figure for this engine.  The throttle plate is mostly closed at that point of course.

Not sure on fuel trims.  Hopefully someone else can advise on those.

4 hours ago, norman1979 said:

Also MAP sensor is showing around 30KPA on idle and around 100KPA when revving 

Around 30 kPa at idle is what I would expect from any car although I don't have exact figures for your one.

The correct way to check for Vacuum Leaks using Fuel Trims is as follows.

With the car up to Temperature add the Long and Short Term Fuel Trims together at Idle, then increase the Engine speed to 3500rpm for 10 seconds and add the Long and Short Term Trims together. If the difference between the Idle and 3500rpm figures is greater than 15% then you have a Vacuum Leak.

This might give you a spurious result in your case because the Long Term Fuel Trim is at its Maximum of 30%. Disconnecting the Battery for a few minutes may reset the figures back to zero, I'm not certain about that.

If there is a Vacuum Leak and there are any Vacuum Lines around about the Throttle Body then Idle the car as before, note the Short Term Fuel Trim, then clamp the Lines one at a time for 30 seconds. If the Short Term Fuel Trim changes by more than 15% then that Vacuum Line is leaking.

I would also do some more investigation of the Cylinder 2 Contribution problem, I can't understand why there has not been a Misfire PID for it. You may be able to Monitor the Misfire Count for each Cylinder with the Engine running,

If so then it may tell you if the Misfire is intermittent or not. If the Cylinder is just contributing less then FORScan may not be able to tell you much about that.  

If not there may be Misfire Counts in the Mode 6 Tests.

 

  • 1 month later...

To conclude this chapter: the issue was the fuel pump

I changed the throttle body, fuel injectors and rail and a temp sensor for good measure but it was the pump that resolved the issue

 

 

Crank sensor ? Wet belt pure junk.

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