13 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

  But the alternator on my 'other' car doesn't charge at idle, battery light comes on if I try to use any electrical consumers at a standstill. 

That surprises me. Haven't seen that since I last had a car with a dynamo, which is quite a while ago!

Claimed advantage of an alternator versus dynamo back then was its ability to charge at low rpm.

14 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

That surprises me. Haven't seen that since I last had a car with a dynamo, which is quite a while ago!

Claimed advantage of an alternator versus dynamo back then was its ability to charge at low rpm.

Yes, there's also a charging fault on that car but I didn't want to take the thread too far off-topic as it's not relevant for this.  Alternators do work at low RPM, but not to 'full' capacity.  Engine runs fine and can use radio etc, but switch on the heated rear screen or the aux heater element (max cabin heat) and they quickly get shut-off and the battery light illuminates.  Impossible to defrost the damn thing without driving it!  

I have noticed when driving it that sometimes the idle RPM is higher when stopped at traffic lights after 2 or 3 close stop/start cycles, which I assume must be done to increase battery charge.  Oddly, at that point everything works fine, it's just after the first start that it doesn't work - and also doesn't increase the RPMs.  From this I have made the assumption that the alternator does need a few revs to work most efficiently...but I'm happy to be proved wrong if there's a scientific principle that I'm missing.

(Long story short, it has a cheap lead acid battery fitted instead of the EFB.  That means that it hasn't been coded in (since 2017!) so the variable charging presumably doesn't work either.  I've never tested voltage over time - but it's always failed to work at slow idle - either need to hold the revs up or cruise for higher consumers so work)

12 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Yes, there's also a charging fault on that car

Ah! That makes sense!

13 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

 I didn't want to take the thread too far off-topic as it's not relevant for this. 

Very commendable but it rarely works as we know!😀😀

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Out of interest, why are you driving more carefully?  I'd expect the alternator to produce more power at higher RPM's when it's physically spinning more quickly.

I know there's been debate about this before.  But the alternator on my 'other' car doesn't charge at idle, battery light comes on if I try to use any electrical consumers at a standstill.  But once cruising on the road at higher RPM it charges fine.

OK, so forgive me, as I now know how people feel when I get technical about computers when I listen to you guys talking about batteries  etc as a lot of it goes over my head.... 😂 So apologies if I have this completely wrong... 

But.... I was under the impression with the hybrid gauge that when it lights up green the battery is charging... Obviously this only happens when your foot is off the gas. 

Also... If accelerating over and above miss Daisy mode it shows that the battery is assisting the powertrain. 

Just now, magic14 said:

OK, so forgive me, as I now know how people feel when I get technical about computers when I listen to you guys talking about batteries  etc as a lot of it goes over my head.... 😂 So apologies if I have this completely wrong... 

But.... I was under the impression with the hybrid gauge that when it lights up green the battery is charging... Obviously this only happens when your foot is off the gas. 

Also... If accelerating over and above miss Daisy mode it shows that the battery is assisting the powertrain. 

Ah ok, I see the issue, easy mistake.  That's for the hybrid battery only.  It has nothing to do with the 12v 'accessories' battery.  It's the 12v battery that powers all of the accessories that you're 'losing' in deep sleep mode. 

The hybrid battery is only there to provide extra engine power while driving, or to restart the engine once the stop/start cuts the engine.

6 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Ah ok, I see the issue, easy mistake.  That's for the hybrid battery only.  It has nothing to do with the 12v 'accessories' battery.  It's the 12v battery that powers all of the accessories that you're 'losing' in deep sleep mode. 

The hybrid battery is only there to provide extra engine power while driving, or to restart the engine once the stop/start cuts the engine.

Thanks for the explanation... So stupid question... The 12v "accessories" battery charges via the alternator?

So i can stop driving like Miss Daisy 😂

Interestingly unlike most other people with the 12v battery drain issues my auto stop start has never stopped working... Which is a shame 😂

16 minutes ago, magic14 said:

Thanks for the explanation... So stupid question... The 12v "accessories" battery charges via the alternator?

So i can stop driving like Miss Daisy 😂

Interestingly unlike most other people with the 12v battery drain issues my auto stop start has never stopped working... Which is a shame 😂

Technically it's a 48v generator in place of the alternator, but yes it does the same job.  The generator itself is also used in reverse to restart the engine using the 48v battery - so that probably explains why your stop/start is working perfectly as you've not been using any of the hybrid battery for acceleration.  

As far as I'm aware, the generator constantly charges the 12v battery with fairly low current (through a voltage converter) but only charges the 48v hybrid battery on 'over-run' using engine braking to create the extra current.  That way it's not using any extra engine power to charge the hybrid battery which would be counter-productive.

 

**That is a very interesting question though, and has caused some doubt in my own mind now.   It would technically be possible for the 48v generator to only charge the hybrid battery - and then the 12v battery could just get charged from the larger battery, but I don't think that's how it operates on these MHEV's as it would be less efficient.  That is how 12v batteries are charged on full electric vehicles where there's no engine to drive a generator. 

5 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I'd expect the alternator to produce more power at higher RPM's when it's physically spinning more quickly.

1200 RPM and above the alternator will give maximum linear output. ie. over 1200 RPM you will get no additional output.

As Tom is saying just drive normally. Also the use of heated seats or any other electrical equipment will have no effect on the charge going to the battery. The alternator can produce 120 Amps or more and the most that the battery will draw is 15 Amp or less. 

27 minutes ago, unofix said:

1200 RPM and above the alternator will give maximum linear output. ie. over 1200 RPM you will get no additional output.

As Tom is saying just drive normally. Also the use of heated seats or any other electrical equipment will have no effect on the charge going to the battery. The alternator can produce 120 Amps or more and the most that the battery will draw is 15 Amp or less. 

Thanks Unofix.

If I use heated seats/windscreen/steering wheel then the car goes into remote features disabled pretty much straight away and then inevitably deep sleep. That's why I was trying not to use them. And to see if it was affecting the car being unable to get out of its low state of charge. 

 

3 hours ago, magic14 said:

If I use heated seats/windscreen/steering wheel then the car goes into remote features disabled pretty much straight away and then inevitably deep sleep.

I assume you mean when parked 🤣 it would be just a bit worrying if it goes to sleep while driving.

When the engine is running (above 1200 RPM) the alternator provides the power and the battery is only there to top up any short term demands. If you are finding that the car is entering deep sleep soon after parking up I would suspect a battery fault such as a dead cell. Put simply the battery although getting charged, it is unable to hold the charge for any meaningful length of time.

I'd call in to Halfords or Kwik-Fit and get the battery tested, although it's not a definitive answer if they say that it seems OK, or that it just needs a charge.

On 11/10/2023 at 8:17 PM, unofix said:

I assume you mean when parked 🤣 it would be just a bit worrying if it goes to sleep while driving.

When the engine is running (above 1200 RPM) the alternator provides the power and the battery is only there to top up any short term demands. If you are finding that the car is entering deep sleep soon after parking up I would suspect a battery fault such as a dead cell. Put simply the battery although getting charged, it is unable to hold the charge for any meaningful length of time.

I'd call in to Halfords or Kwik-Fit and get the battery tested, although it's not a definitive answer if they say that it seems OK, or that it just needs a charge.

Haha yes when I park up, usually about 30 mins after parking. 

I have also noticed that I can drive around and then the battery seems to have charged as the parking sensors go back to their normal tone, courtesy lights come back on.. But then I park up and 30 mins later car is back in deep sleep mode. 

It's booked in at Ford today just had to wait a while as they were waiting for parts for my brakes and glove box and will have in their words... A hire car until they can find and fix the issue... 

So we shall see... 

What I don't understand is the deep sleep mode.. It says on the ford site that it goes into this mode if inactive for 14 days or the battery voltage drops below 9.5 volts. So why when I plug it in to charge does it generally show 12.3 or thereabout on the charger?

1 hour ago, magic14 said:

What I don't understand is the deep sleep mode.. It says on the ford site that it goes into this mode if inactive for 14 days or the battery voltage drops below 9.5 volts. So why when I plug it in to charge does it generally show 12.3 or thereabout on the charger?

That can't be correct.  9.5v would never start the engine, it would be far too late to trigger deep sleep by then.  Must be an error on their site.

However, it's interesting you say you battery is always 12.3v+.  There was a Fiesta on here a few months ago where the calculated  BMS reading was very different to the actual battery reading.  That was preventing AC & heated screens from working as the car 'thought' the battery was lower than it was.  The poster never mentioned deep sleep, though it's possible they didn't use the Ford Pass app.

Did you ever take a BMS reading through Forscan?

11 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Did you ever take a BMS reading through Forscan?

No I haven't got Forscan. Maybe that will be something to look at if I still have issues after it's back from Ford. 

Although my car never went in today in the end as the hire car had an engine warning light so they didn't drop it off. 

Apparently Wednesday now! 

Here's a screenshot of the deep sleep explanation just to show I'm not going mad! 😂

12 hours ago, magic14 said:

Although my car never went in today in the end as the hire car had an engine warning light so they didn't drop it off. 

They really shouldn't use Fords for hire cars! 🤭

 

Someone's definitely messed up on that Deep Sleep write up.  

Our 22 plate Fiesta was doing exactly this with deep sleep mode. Often 20 minutes after parking up, I'd get the remote features disabled notification. If I charged it overnight, maybe it would last a day or so, then back to normal. Always started perfectly ok though. 

Booked into dealer. Thankfully, I have a friend who works in the workshop. He texted me to say they had it on test, and could find absolutely nothing wrong with it. But, the guy doing the test (with my friends persuasion?? I don't know) changed the battery anyway.

It has been flawless since. Not once has it gone into deep sleep. 

Same issue with my Mk4.5 since it has gotten colder. Had the notification through the app a few times, and a very loud warning and battery light on the dash when getting into the car one evening. 

 

I drive the car a good 100+ miles some days.

 

Just one of many issues I'm having, although all Ford dealerships here are 'fully booked' for diagnostics and can't provide a courtesy car either!!

My money is on a faulty battery.  I don’t pretend to understand the detail but voltage (which is what chargers tend to use) isn’t a measure of actual capacity/capability to supply that voltage.  Stick a decent load on it and suddenly the battery might struggle.

I had issues with a fiesta years ago when the weather got colder (batteries hate the cold), chargers always saying it was charged etc but I kept having problems starting.  I put in a new battery and never looked back.  The “old” battery wasn’t that old either and was the one supplied by Ford new. 

10 hours ago, tarbyonline said:

voltage (which is what chargers tend to use) isn’t a measure of actual capacity

Correct. Batteries can suffer from sulphation which effectively reduces the area of the plates resulting in increased internal resistance. It may measure a perfectly normal off-load voltage but as soon as a significant current is drawn the voltage will collapse.

Well car is still with Ford. Not really had many updates other than they are testing the battery in the car and also disconnected from the car... 

But I'm a little bit suspicious... 🤔 

Last time it was disconnected I got warnings on ford pass app that battery had been disconnected. 

This time I've had no warnings whatsoever and I can see all my remote features, lock unlock, remote start, location etc... Not been a day where I haven't been able to access this, which makes me wonder if they are actually doing anything because if the battery was disconnected then none of this would work?! 

1 hour ago, magic14 said:

Well car is still with Ford. Not really had many updates other than they are testing the battery in the car and also disconnected from the car... 

But I'm a little bit suspicious... 🤔 

Last time it was disconnected I got warnings on ford pass app that battery had been disconnected. 

This time I've had no warnings whatsoever and I can see all my remote features, lock unlock, remote start, location etc... Not been a day where I haven't been able to access this, which makes me wonder if they are actually doing anything because if the battery was disconnected then none of this would work?! 

Could they maybe have connected it to the mains before removing it so the warning hasn’t triggered?  Really hope you get it sorted soon🙂.

A nice feature of the Skoda app was you could see when the bonnet was open (as well as any other doors/boot).  Not a fault with the car as such, but it would surely be an easy thing for Ford to implement and improve the app.  Mind you, it took a good 90 seconds for the door opening/locking or think and flash to do anything from the app, to Ford’s credit it’s more like 1 or 2 for me.  
Whoever thought of linking the climate control and heated seats/wheel to the remote start deserves a pay rise IMO. One of those things I never thought I’d need until I got it!

2 minutes ago, tarbyonline said:

Could they maybe have connected it to the mains before removing it so the warning hasn’t triggered?  Really hope you get it sorted soon🙂.

 

Yes maybe that would not trigger the security.. But if the battery wasn't connected to the vehicle I wouldn't have the remote features surely and see the mileage, petrol etc?

I must admit... I have been tempted to set of the lights and horn activation! 😂😂

I used to have alerts when the doors etc were opened but then Ford got rid of that option... Securialert or something I think. 

As for the remote start, yes absolute legend although I'm hating on Ford at the moment because the 2 weeks when it's been absolutely freezing and could've really used it at 5am in the morning when leaving I haven't had my car! 😂🙈

1 minute ago, magic14 said:

Yes maybe that would not trigger the security.. But if the battery wasn't connected to the vehicle I wouldn't have the remote features surely and see the mileage, petrol etc?

I must admit... I have been tempted to set of the lights and horn activation! 😂😂

I used to have alerts when the doors etc were opened but then Ford got rid of that option... Securialert or something I think. 

As for the remote start, yes absolute legend although I'm hating on Ford at the moment because the 2 weeks when it's been absolutely freezing and could've really used it at 5am in the morning when leaving I haven't had my car! 😂🙈

Perhaps it doesn’t know the difference between the battery and the mains 🤷‍♂️.  Or as you say maybe they haven’t disconnected the battery at all yet.  Perhaps they are trying a different approach than removing the battery again and doing some type of diagnostics.  Alternatively (and you’d hope this isn’t the case) they are short handed and just haven’t gotten round to it yet.

I’m sure they’d rather have your car out of the workshop than in it though.  Can only speak for  my local dealer but space is at a premium there despite them having a huge underground workshop.

9 minutes ago, magic14 said:

As for the remote start, yes absolute legend although I'm hating on Ford at the moment because the 2 weeks when it's been absolutely freezing and could've really used it at 5am in the morning when leaving I haven't had my car! 😂🙈

Of course that’s only any good if the battery is charged enough for these features to work!

Just had a warning come up on my ST X Mhev 155 Focus 4.5. Just coming up to 12 months old, I've had it 6 months. "Battery charging fault service required". Red light on dash and the mild hybrid unit isn't working. Any ideas? The Ford Pass app says to turn off any unused electric items.

3 hours ago, Dixy said:

"Battery charging fault service required". Red light on dash and the mild hybrid unit isn't working.

I'd say the warning on the instrument cluster covers the situation. "Charging System Bu99ered - Take to a garage and get fixed" would be an alternative message put it would probably not fit on the screen.